Noel Wax is the CEO of Groundswell Group and has over 25 years of experience in sales, marketing, and partner development. Before founding GroundSwell Group, Noel held senior leadership positions at CBS Radio, KNBR radio, and World Cup Soccer.
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Noel shares the steps to building strong business relationships with the key people within your industry.
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Transcript
Will Barron:
Do you want to know the secrets, the insider hacks to building long-term business relationships that lead to referrals and just huge deals at the end of the day? Then this episode is for you.
Will Barron:
Hello sales nation and welcome to today’s episode of The Salesman Podcast. On today’s show we have Noel Wax. He is the CEO of the GroundSwell Group. He is an expert in socially responsible marketing, and he’s an expert relationship builder, and that’s exactly what we’re diving into on today’s episode. To find out more about Noel, go over to groundswellgroup.com, everything that we talk about is available in the show notes over at salesman.org. With all that said, let’s jump in to today’s episode. Noel, welcome to The Salesman Podcast.
Speaker 2:
Thank you, Will. It is a pleasure to be here today.
The Building Blocks of Great Customer Relationships · [01:10]
Will Barron:
I’m glad to have you on, mate. I’m glad to dive into building relationships, and I’m confident that you’re going to give us some… This is almost a cliche way to describe it, but outside-the-box ways to build relationships, and build useful relationships that last decades, not just the next sale. And with that, I guess customer loyalty ties in, and that’s the end goal of all relationships from what I’m concerned with, in the B2B world. What percentage do you feel of great customer relationships come from… on one side, a great product, versus on the other side, what salespeople can perhaps control which is relationships, which is them adding value personally. Which is even more important to have a long-term loyal customer?
Speaker 2:
They are both so important. It’s a great question to kick off with. I believe that if you are not passionate about what you represent, what you sell, the product that you have, it’s hard to make that side of it work, so that is critical. And obviously having a good product is a part of that. Relationships are essential. Those are the people that you pick up the phone and call when you move to a new company, or have something that you want to position, or bring them in as part of.
Speaker 2:
When you have a relationship, you can pick up the phone and say, “Hey, I want you to give this a try.” Or, “I’m doing something new and different.” Or, “I’ve got a great new rollout that we’ve got.” There’s a level of trust that comes along with that relationship, where someone can say to you and me, “Hey, Noel, thanks for the call. Of course, I’m willing to listen to what you have.” And you know them well enough to know that it makes sense for them. You get one chance at that with a relationship, and then you’ve got to prove it through the product and delivery afterwards.
The Most Comprehensive Way to Measure the Depth of a Relationship in B2B Sales · [02:20]
Will Barron:
Noel, I was going to ask if there’s a way to measure a relationship? And I think you might have just touched on it there. It’s the best way to… perhaps measure these B2B relationships. A binary of whether we can ring them up, and they will try something based on the trust that we’ve built up before this moment. Is that a binary point where we can say, “Well, if we’ve achieved that, then we’ve got a good business relationship with that person?”
Speaker 2:
If you have a product or service that represents something, where you could call a friend, and either that friend can say to you, “Yes, I’d love to try it.” Or they can refer you to the person inside of the company with a great recommendation, and say, “You want to talk to Noel. You want to talk to…” Whoever it is about this thing. That is the best. To cultivate that takes time. I want go back to friendships I had in high school. I’m 47 years old now, and I’ve got friends that are doing incredible things. And I can pick up the phone and call them at… whether it’s at LinkedIn, or Bank of America, and say, “I started this business four years ago, can you help me with something, or get me the right person?” And without doubt, they will say, “Yes.” Those are real friendships.
“It took me a long time to convert a business relationship into a friendship. But once I realised that I could actually do that, my relationships became even more valuable.” – Noel Wax · [03:37]
Speaker 2:
But in the years of business, I’ve developed those as well by virtue of what I’ve delivered to, and for them, and the value that I’ve brought to the table relative to that relationship. It took me a long time to convert a business relationship into a friendship. Once I realised that I could actually do that, they became even more valuable, because those two worlds together is, I think, the best. A friend that’s also a business relationship. And it came to the point where I offered a lot of value in advance, and those relationships became very real.
Will Barron:
This is interesting to me. I don’t know if I’ve ever had a business relationship that’s turned into a friendship, especially in sales. Now I do, with the podcast. There’s plenty of guests that come on that I speak to about the show, about just life in general. Whether I’m being mentored by them, whether I might suck any information from them or not, we’re probably mates at this point. But in sales, I don’t know if there’s any customer that I’ve ever gone from a business relationship, and great business relationships into a friendship.
Can You Turn Your Key Business Relationships Into Friendships? · [04:24]
Will Barron:
Is this something that is time-dependent, or is this something that on… How do I describe this? When you want to be friends with someone, or when you become friends with someone, typically there’s other elements thrown in, of your environment, you’re close to them, you got other things in common outside of, perhaps business or the initial lane that you’re having that conversation with them in. Is a business relationship to a friendship what we should be aiming for here? Because this is something that we never really talked about on the show going that extra step.
Speaker 2:
Well, I’m glad to tip a new category for you. Again, it took me a long time to do, but there’s fast friends, there’s long-term friends, there’s people you’ve known from other criteria outside of business, but what has really worked for me lately is if I meet somebody in a business context and I say, I like them. I actually enjoy their personality. I want them to meet my children, my family, come over for dinner. They’re not just on my holiday card list, but someone that actually want to spend time with. That’s certainly not everybody I meet in the business setting, but there are a lot of people lately. Once I opened my mind to that and said, “I’d actually like to spend some time with them.” That is extraordinary. There are also people that I don’t want to have that kind of relationship with.
Speaker 2:
But to me, doing something that you are passionate about and that you love. A friendship can be cultivated over coffee once a month, once every quarter, just to say, “What’s going on with you? How are things? How can I help you?” Also, one thing I’ve learned is I’ve made myself vulnerable and I’ve made myself available to these people so that they can get to know me, so that when it’s not something to say, “Hey, how can we do business together?” It’s, “How are your children? You just had surgery. You just did this. I understand your mother is sick.” Those are real relationships. Again, maybe not people I have invited over to the barbecue or to my house for dinner, but friendships, nonetheless, because I know more about them than just business. And I actually genuinely care in a way that makes it a deeper relationship that allows it to be easier when the sale happens.
The New Way of Selling is Relationship-Based. Get Used to It · [06:28]
Will Barron:
Is this a good example of… And I hate these terms again, but old school selling versus new school selling, of old school always be closing, always be pushing for that next action step versus now. And the world I’m from is high value long sales cycle, corporate sales in the medical device world in the chemical sales industry. This is baked into the world I know, versus the used car sales person, which sums up the old school way of selling, I believe. Is this is transition that we all need to start making? And is this a sign that perhaps we need to commit to work in sales in one vertical, not perhaps one company for 20 years, but perhaps one vertical for a number of years to build these relationships? Is this a sign of times to come where sales are going to become less transitional or transactional, and they’re going to become more based on the fact that you’ve got this relationship and trust with individuals?
Speaker 2:
Great question. I think it’s a combination Will, I really do. You want to have in such to use some of these old… Its old school, new school. Some of the old school terms fill a big funnel, put a whole bunch of stuff in there, have some stuff come out the other end. My style is I’ve got no more than 20 real authentic, connected relationships. And sometimes it’ll change. It’s not always the same 20, but those are the people I look at every single day. And I say, what is the next step in this relationship? The old school part of it is how am I moving this towards a deal? And maybe sometimes it’s just checking in to say, “How are you today? How is your family?” And then the third call, it’s part of the intent. But the third call is, “Hey, I noticed something is going on here. I think I might be able to help you with this. Here’s an idea that I’ve got for you.” And in my mind, I want it to happen by a certain amount of time.
“When someone feels like there is pressure on them to give you an answer, they’re less inclined to do so. The metaphor I like to use is, we are attracted to that which retreats. So make that relationship desirable and then maybe pull away just a little bit.” – Noel Wax · [08:27]
Speaker 2:
There is certainly needs to be a sense of urgency around these things or stuff will not happen. There needs to be timelines and deadlines for stuff. But to have it in the context of not every call needs to be that, it doesn’t need to be the boiler room situation, at least for me. That’s what I’ve learned over the years, that when someone feels like there is pressure on them to give you an answer, they’re less inclined. The metaphor I use is we are attracted to that, which retreats. Make it desirable and then maybe pulled away just a little bit. You’re not, this is strong term, but you’re not attacking somebody to do a deal with you. It’s a combination of those two things, but it all worked when the relationship is there. There are hundreds of people I’ve tried to cultivate relationships with, that just haven’t worked. I worry less about those people and more about the 20 or so that I have some real relationship with that I can affect change.
Applying Pareto’s Principle to Building Relationships · [08:59]
Will Barron:
Is there an element to Pareto’s law here of 20% of brilliant relationships will give you 80% of the results versus going for relationships with everyone at a smaller scale, less in depth scale? And that’s only going to give you a smaller percentage of the results versus focusing on those core real good relationships you just get on well with people as well.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. You can get to answers more quickly with real relationships that you’ve got, I believe so it’s not the same cycle. Like anything, it’s a combination of all of those things. But again, in my top 20, it’s picking up the phone and saying, Hey, can we get something done right now? I’ve got an idea for you?” At the same time, you’re cultivating a lot of relationships. I don’t think anybody really has all the time in the world to spread yourself too thin. People can see through that. To me, that’s a one and done type of a deal as opposed to a real relationship that continues to pay dividends.
Speaker 2:
The best part of these real relationships and what I would call my top 20, they’ll refer you to new stuff. They’ll refer you to other people that then become that’s the greatest way to get introductions. I quite honestly, at this point in my career, I’m tired of making those cold calls because people don’t respond in the same way they used to in the old school. They’re not answering their phone. They’re not responding to email. You can try an email drip campaign or a social media campaign to put thousands of people that end up being a couple, a dozen, that you talk to. It’s not my style. It doesn’t work for me, but I still do some of that to try to get to those real relationships.
The First Step to Building Profitable Business Relationships · [10:26]
Will Barron:
Okay. Let’s run it back to the beginning of, we all know, we’ve covered it millions times on the podcast at this point, literally hundreds of times at this point in the podcast, we all know that to get that initial conversation going, you can cold call, you can call email, you can stalk people, industry events, and that’s pretty much where the imagination of most B2B sales professionals ends. Is there anything else that we should be thinking about, any other ways to, again, not weird and creepily get in front of our potential customers, but as in waiting for them in the car park and handing them leaflets as has been done in many films in the 80s and 90s. Is there any other ways that we can get in front of these individuals to stop building a relationship that doesn’t start with a cold-called email or industry event?
Speaker 2:
I have done all of those things multiple times. I continue to do those things multiple times. They continue to be a major point of challenge frustration for me, as they do many of us in this field, in this world. My answer is creativity. Do all of those things, because those are the box checkers you have to, most likely and also set your expectations. You’re going to send an email, you’re going to make a phone call. You’re going to stalk. You’re going to do social. And most likely they’re not going to respond. If that’s your expectation, do those things because without them you’re not in the game and then take it to the next level. For those that you think are worthwhile, be really, really creative.
Speaker 2:
I’ll give you just a quick example. We have a youth sports network that we were able to connect brands with a young audience of five to 15 year old baseball players, 2.5 million of them, just sending the email. It makes so much sense to me, for people to want to be part of that. What I did is I went out, I bought a baseball, I bought a pack of cards. I wrote a handwritten note. I found out who these people were. I sent it to them. And what I’m finding is they’re at least looking at my LinkedIn profile to see who is this guy. They may have deleted my voicemail, they may have deleted my email, they may not have looked at my social media outreach. But this is something now cost me $3.50. I chose 20 of them that made the most sense. And I bet I’m going to get 50% of them to at least have a conversation with me.
Speaker 2:
If I’m in the game with a conversation, I’m in the game. Then it’s up to me to prove my product is worthwhile and valuable for them, understand their needs and try to put something together for them. The next level up is creativity. You can find out a lot about people these days, find out where they went to college, send them a little licence plate cover. Send them a T-shirt, if it’s worth it, to invest that much in something that potentially could bear fruit for you to the tune of offsetting the cost of a $10 T-shirt or a $5 package. That’s the next level to me that really gets people’s attention.
Creative Ideas to Spice Up Your Outreach · [13:09]
Will Barron:
How much of this is just doing the opposite of what everyone else is doing, so you stand out? Rather than being crazy creative, if everyone’s spamming in your industry and your vertical spamming emails, you send literally the opposite and send lumpy mail as you were describing. How much of it is down to creativity and how much is it is just down to doing the exact opposite? You’ve got that little bit of spark, that little bit of shine that you’ve done something different?
Speaker 2:
Trying to stay one step ahead of it will. I mean, If now opposite is writing a handwritten note, in three months that’ll become common and we’ll have to go back to sending emails again. But I think doing it different, something that stands out, people do open their mail. If I received a piece of mail, someone took a moment to write a note to me, they learned a little bit about me. The least I could do is show them the respect to read it, respond, even if it’s just, “I’m not interested. Thanks for the effort.” I know people don’t even get responses to sending bottles of wine and bigger things these days.
Speaker 2:
I’ve even thought recently about, people that will respond to me, leaving a message and say, “I will give you $100 for a 15 minute conversation.” If you work X amount of time and you get paid X amount of dollars, you would make X amount this year. Is it worth it for 15 minutes if I send you $100 check? It’s more attention getting than anything else, but just trying to be different, unique, creative, thoughtful, sometimes a little shock value. But behind it is a real, authentic idea that I can help them. I can bring value to them. And I’ve done my research on that before I even make the outreach.
Will Barron:
What would be an example of shock value? Because everything you said then that made my ears stand up a little bit.
Speaker 2:
To each person it’s different. Once I know something about them. If I see something in common that I found at LinkedIn and say, “Hey, we went to school at the same time. I wonder if you were in such and such a class??” Really personal. Sometimes, I sent a book to somebody that wasn’t responding to me. And the shock was the book was, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And in the note, I said, “Hey, maybe if we both read this, we will find a way to find common ground?” I’m taking a risk. She could have been entirely offended or she could have been like, “Wow, that was really cool and creative.”
Speaker 2:
Either way, I’m ahead of where I am now, which is nothing. Being different, being unique, trying to get attention, willing to risk some things sometimes and just say, “Even if it’s a call, I’m making myself vulnerable. It’s so uncomfortable. Leave you this message now because I know I’ve left you 23 and I probably seem like a stalker, but I would really love to talk to you. I think I could bring real value to you. And I’m embarrassed even after I call this many times. You can make me go away by responding to my call, responding to my email or just getting back to me. I’m going to keep trying until I get you.” They’re just like, “All right, I got to get this guy out of my hair. I’m going to call him back.” It’s those aren’t positive things. But it’s a little shocking for someone to realise that he’s not going away until I get back to him.
Pushing the Limits: Taking Risks Leads to Greater Outreach Success · [16:52]
Will Barron:
You just described it then really beautifully. And this was a massive revelation for me when I was in medical device sales. Because I hated cold-calling people, especially surgeons, because you never actually get the surgeon. You get the PA or you get the nurse because all the time, obviously they’re in theatre. They’re in the operating room with the hand inside a patient in my case. They’re not picking up the phone, then there’s no office phone to get them on. I didn’t really like it. But I had this realisation and you described it the note of when I’m calling these people, whether it’s a cold-call or not, and I get rejected, I’ve not lost anything because I didn’t have anything with them in the first place. Then it’s worth in my mind. As long as you’re not pissing people off, clearly your personal brand is increasingly important as LinkedIn and online reviews and I’m sure at some point there’s going to be a website where you can review sales people and business people within your industry. It might even pop up on LinkedIn at some point.
Will Barron:
Clearly, personal brand is important. You don’t want to be annoying people, but taking that little bit of a risk is almost always worth it in that you’re not lost anything because you weren’t doing a deal with them in the first place. Just getting that No, from them is probably just as useful as getting a yes, because it allows you disqualify them, it allows you to stop wasting your time on that prospect. It allows you to go onto the next one. Do we underestimate that in sales? Do we underestimate the value of taking that little bit of risk, pushing that little bit of a boundary and getting the no quicker so we can move on to the next?
Speaker 2:
Absolutely, Will. And I think it has a lot to do with how many people are in your potential customer set. So if you’ve just got three clients to go after and if you risk all of them and lose all of them and you’re out of business or out of commission. Obviously that’s not worth the risk, but in most cases there are hundreds, if not thousands or dozens of thousands of potential partners that are out there. To take a couple, especially after you’ve tried a number of different ways and you’ve got nothing out of that, then of course you’ve got nothing to lose. And another key thing here that I just thought of is being able to separate. Some people are really, really good at this in sales. I’m not. I had to figure out a different way to do it, separating you from what is yours.
“I’ve always said the “No” is the second best answer to Yes. “Maybe” and “no response” is awful, you have nothing to work with there.” – Noex Wax · [18:52]
Speaker 2:
And that’s an emotional connection that we have with the process where if you ask someone for feedback, both positive and negative, most of us would poo-poo the positives and say, “Okay, great, thanks for that. But that one thing you said about me, that’s not so good. Let’s talk about that.” And we tend to go to that and we’re so emotionally connected. Getting No, from somebody, like you said, I can separate the emotion from it and say, “Great, that gets me either closer to a real answer or a real reason why, helps me uncover some objectives and objections that I might be facing.” Had an example of that recently, that was very powerful to realise, “Okay, I didn’t do the best job I could to inspire this person to want to work with me, either of learning for the next time.” Or I can go back and say, “I missed that this last time. How about if I do this?” Getting the No, gets you there. I’ve always said the No, is the second best answer to yes, maybe.” And no response is awful. You have nothing to work with there.
How to Strategically Build a Business Relationship After a Successful Outreach · [19:00]
Will Barron:
Okay. We’ve done something bright. We’ve still done something intelligent. We’ve got their attention, this individual that we want to in five years time be their best friend. We’re talking about their kids and we’re exchanging value and they’re putting millions of commission into our pockets. Why is the transition point from, we’ve got their attention to the beginnings of a relationship and this is purposefully an open-ended question, because I don’t want to put words in your mouth and lead the conversation too much here, but how would you know, go from, they’ve got the book that you’ve sent them, they’ve got the notes, they thought it was witty, they’ve given you a call. How do you transition that from a transactional conversation of, “You’ve given me this value, what do you want into actual relationship?”
Speaker 2:
It’s a great question. I literally close my eyes and before I pick up the phone and I call as a very specific example here. I literally Will, I meditate through it. I try to understand what does the finish line look like? And what are the exact steps along the way to get me there without rushing? I want to go over every hurdle to use a racing example. There’s 10 of them. What does the first one look like? What does the next one look like? But I have to set the ultimate goal, the end. Sometimes the goal is just a conversation. The ultimate goal is the deal. And then obviously the renewal.
Speaker 2:
At each phase along the way, there’s a different goal, but I close my eyes. Okay. With this example, what is my goal? Where do I want to get to? How do I get there? What’s the next thing I need to do? Because without doing it in step or phase processes, I get overwhelmed. Like, “Oh, my God, this multimillion dollar deal. There’s so many things to do.” Okay. What is the next thing? Taking it from a book sending is, “Glad you like the book. Let’s talk about it.” I’m going to read the same one. Whatever it might be. My favourite book is The Go-Giver by Bob Burg. I send that to a lot of people, “What did you like about the book? And did you jump into it yet?” Small talk, small talk. By the way, I’ve got this new thing that I rolled out that I think would make a lot of sense for us to talk about. As you are planning 2018, can we jump on a quick call to talk about how this might apply to what you’re doing?” I know enough about what they’re doing to make it make sense.
Speaker 2:
That’s a trial attempt at a meeting or a close. If they say whatever the answer is, it could be no, it could be not right yet. It could be yes. If it’s yes, boom. We got our goal. If it’s no, okay. “Well, is there a better time for that?” I trial it. Now once I trial and they say, “No, I can’t go right back to another.” “Well, how about this?” I pull it back a little bit and say, “Hey, how about that book again?” That’s cultivating the relationship and the conversation obviously dependent upon where it is, but knowing what the finish line looks like, one step at a time to get there, not rushing it too much, but also setting a goal in a parameter. I know certain timelines, obviously this is a great time to do it, planning for 2018. Then the next phase would be, “Hey, what does Q2 look like for you? How can we be part of your growth” Q3, you’ve got this date coming up. Knowing certain calendar dates that allow me a sense of urgency as well.
How to Help Your Buyer See the Sense in Buying Your Product or Service · [22:10]
Will Barron:
Is your goal just to dumb that down to my level for a second, or is your goal then for each of these steps to make the… And I’m hesitant to call them a prospect at this point, making the person that you want to do business with go, “That makes sense.” Can we dumb it down to that, that we’re doing engineering, an environment where the goal at each step is for them to go? “Yeah, that makes sense.” And then you move on to the next one?
Speaker 2:
That is absolutely correct. Acknowledgements and positive reinforcement along the way to ultimately get there again, dependent upon how long your cycle is and what you need. I’m not in the position of being in a hard sale environment. I don’t need something today. I need relationships to cultivate big, big deals and not a tonne of them to make it work for me. But absolutely so. In a real example, I sent a licence plate cover to someone I knew, went to University of Kansas. She sent a note to me said, “Hey, thanks.” This is after 15 attempts at a phone call. She said, “Hey, thanks so much for that. That was really cool. Hope the team does well in the next game.” Now I look at the schedule, “Hey, such and such, they’re playing University of Virginia next week.”
Speaker 2:
You go into the game, small talk, small talk. And then, “I would love to talk to you about this. A very specific thing. I think it could help you with that.” And she said, “Yes, I would love to, when can we do that?” You have the conversation and then now you’re in the game. And that’s a great place to be.
The Benefits of Documenting All of Your Client Interactions For Future Reference · [23:19]
Will Barron:
Okay. Do you document these steps or is this… Because you use the word meditate then. I’d like to dive a little bit deep into that. Do you document the process of each of these people, what you’ve done, what you have and what you believe the next step is, whether it be a CRM, whether it be a jot piece of paper? Every interview I do, I keep these notes so that when I interview you in the future, I can quickly look back and see what we’ve covered and I can bring up anything that we talk about off camera as well or off the recording. Is that part of your process or is this just all done in your head?
Speaker 2:
No, it is part of the process. I’m not as advanced, I’m a little old school in terms of my CRM tools and technology. I use a good old fashioned spreadsheet, they’re categorised. I’ve got my As my Bs my Cs and then my wish could haves. My As are literally every single day. What can I do today to move this along? Again, sometimes it’s a book, a calendar. Sometimes it’s a real conversation, someone’s asking for a meeting and sometimes it’s nothing. The Bs, how do I move my Bs to As? There’s little notes in there about what the next step is when I finish that first step, I take the moment at that time to say, what is the next thing I think I should be able to do? A lot of times it’s research on a client, but it’s in a spreadsheet format.
Speaker 2:
My business partner has been admonishing me to do more than just put it in a spreadsheet, which I think will arrive. This will be something we’ll do this year as a CRM tool. I use my calendaring and my contact database to make notes on everything that I’m doing with someone. I’ve done it long enough, where there is a lot of feel to this. And there’s a lot of feel of where I am in that relationship. And when is the right time to ask for something? I don’t think my clients and prospects have any idea how methodical I am about it. I want them to feel like it’s authentic and it’s real because it is. And not that, “Hey, the third call for Noel is going to be him asking for something.” But that’s how I have to play it in my mind. I pull it back a notch when I say, “This is what I’m going to do.” How do I do that in a way that they receive it in the most positive and welcoming way so I can move towards my goal?
How to Have Control Over Your Day and Stay Productive the Noel Wax Way · [27:36]
Will Barron:
And how does this look day to day? Is this, you get to the office 8:30, 9:00, whatever it is, seven o’clock. I don’t want to offend you there thinking that you get into the office at nine and slack in there no, but you get the look at the spreadsheet and go, “Right today and I’m going to do X, Y, Z. I’m going to try and move three BS to A, from this one A, I want to move forward into just about to close the deal kind of position? Again, I’m just intrigued as to the physical day to day process of all of this. And you’ll see why in a second, as we come onto how you follow up, how you check in with people over the longer term.
Speaker 2:
I love this question. I really feel like I’ve got a lot of value to add to your listeners here. I am a big fan of controlling your day, managing your day and calendaring your day and figuring it out so that it doesn’t take control of you. Just real quickly for me, I’m up at 5:30, naturally. It’s not an alarm clock. I’m very lucky that I get up at that time. I spend 30 minutes in a very, very organised way. I meditate. I write. And in a journal, I write out my gratitudes of which there are five to six every single day. And then I drink a glass of water and I sit down from my deep work and that’s the stuff, it’s not returning emails. It’s what is the biggest thing that I want to accomplish today? Sometimes it’s a very personal letter to somebody.
Speaker 2:
It’s just the deep work that I consider deep work. I have a little bit of family time in the morning, but then my bell rings at right around 8:15, and I’ve organised and structured my entire day, starting with the priorities. What are the things that need to get done to move me towards my goal today? And I’ve got financial goals. I’ve got revenue goals, so that’s okay. Let’s push all the other stuff, carve out. And I know now what the right amount of time for those things are. If I need an hour to do this or be thoughtful about this, I carve those out. And I fill in holes around the calendar. And then I’m done at 5:30 or six o’clock.
Speaker 2:
I spend some family time, which is really important to me. And then I’m back online, later doing some things, wrapping some things up and figuring out the next day, but figuring out the things that are my priorities to drive my business and my revenue, blocking out the time for those things, uninterrupted and getting it done are absolutely critical. And I fill in the holes around that. It’s essential to have a day that I control on my calendar and my schedule.
Will Barron:
And is that very, literally you’re in a room with your phone on aeroplane mode with no notifications on your laptop, computer, whatever you’re using. And you’ve got an hour, two hours staring at one task. Is it very literally as oblivious to the outside world as that?
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And an example of that is if I want to be an expert in the world of socially responsible marketing, I need to educate myself on that to be an expert. Sometimes that’s reading an article for 60 minutes. I stop the time when I stop the time and I try to give myself enough time to complete, but I’m okay. Not sometimes. And just saying, okay, I gave it the hour. I’m going to put this down now. I’ve got other things that I want to do that are also priorities. Let me get to those. But yes, lock in and focus because I’ve decided that those are the things that are going to get me to my goals. Very important.
Will Barron:
Perfect. And can you touch on something here, and I think it’s called, I might be butchering this. I think it’s called Parkinson’s law, and it’s along… Again, I’m going to misquote this completely, but it’s along the lines of the task we’ll take as long as the time that you give it. And I know I have to do this with the podcast of each… Show notes page, for example. I could write this incredible show notes page. It takes two hours. It’s impeccable, there’s loads of value there. Or I could set a timer for 15 minutes and do 95% of the work and get… Well do 20% of the work and get 95% of the end result. I find in sales, that’s important as well, of blocking your time I find keeps you productive. Because it gives you blocks either side where you do the work that gets the most bang for buck. And then you do overwork, different tasks like sending emails or calls or whatever it is.
How to Deepen a Business Relationship After the Deal Has Been Done · [29:40]
Will Barron:
A lot of the time I find in sales when I’m selling the ad space on the show, for example, it’s momentum. It’s not necessarily number of calls, but it’s how in the tune to the conversation I’m having with people, whether I actually care about the conversation, that’s more important than just going on for hours and hours and hours. I end up spamming at that point or reaching out to people that are particularly great customers, just because there’s no end on the time that I’m allotted to this. Okay. Now, we’ve reached out someone in an interesting way. We’ve got their attention. We’ve got a system now in place to do these say 10 touches. It seems organic and real and natural congruent to the prospect to the potential customer even though it’s perhaps somewhat scheduled or very scheduled on our side, we’re time blocking, we’re super organised, we’re super productive and we’ve done a deal.
Will Barron:
After that point, clearly this is where referrals come. This is where bigger deals come, which I think is something that we all need to think a lot about, a little bit more of less customers, bigger deals versus just spamming the crap out of people, which is the trend in tech sales at the moment. How often do you check in with people? I hate that term. How do you check in with people without it being that weird email that says, “Hey, just checking in. How’s it going?” How do you continue and deepen that relationship after the deal has been done?
Speaker 2:
It’s a great, great question. And something that I think is really challenging. I love the process that you took me through to get to the point of we’ve got our deal now. At that point I wipe my hands and I turn over to somebody else. No, I’m just kidding. The relationship is very important. For me, it’s once a week at some level, and there are weeks that go by where we don’t have to. If to me at that point, the relationship and ensuring that we are delivering and they feel really good about making that decision to work with me and work with us and work with our company, those are all hopefully obvious is at those points. I divide up some of the responsibility. I’m lucky enough to have a team or a staff of people that supports this, but my relationship then becomes ensuring that we deliver on the promise to them and all along the way, they feel really good about working with us.
Speaker 2:
The communication cadence is critical. It’s a question I ask along the way to say, how would you like this to look now? My style is to give you, depends on what the deal is, but upwards of a weekly update with numbers and information so that you can look at this thing, I can set it up online. I can send it to you. We can have a conversation. I don’t want this to be cumbersome for you as my client. I want to be as labour and intensive as you want it to be. But I want you to be informed, advised if you need to inform people in your company, what’s going on, you’ll have it. How do you want it to look? And then we set up the structure that way.
Speaker 2:
If it’s a formal once a week, touch base with a 30 minute call to update, fine. If it’s an email update at the end of each week with what’s going on and details from the campaign or the programme, absolutely. It’s a combination of those things. If they say to me, “I want once a month, or I don’t want to talk to you at all, I want to do it at the end. And let’s just do a recap. I’m too busy to do this stuff.” We have to do it in a way that works for both of us. I let them know that there is no amount of contact that’s too much for us because for them to be informed, advised, and open communication is critical for them to see the results of the programme. And also to own that there will be problems. There will be things that come up that we might be very uncomfortable with, but if I’m not talking you to the end, you’re not going to know about that. Let’s not be uncomfortable saying we have this thing, I see this is happening.
Speaker 2:
This isn’t working the way that we thought let’s troubleshoot right now while we can, because then you’re not going to get the deal again if you didn’t advise them of something that goes on. A lot of sales people fear that part. I had a major issue with that in the beginning, I would close my deals. I started in radio sales, I’d close my deals. I wouldn’t talk to them until it was over. I never renewed anything. I had no idea what the problems they were having were. I was afraid to talk to them. That has changed entirely and cannot be the way that we do business.
Why You Need to Add More Touch Points to the Customer Interaction · [33:14]
Will Barron:
About 12 months ago, I can’t remember who it was now on the show. If it comes to mind, I’ll link to this episode in the show notes on this episode over at salesman.org. I got the same advice, which you’re giving sales nation here. I got given to me. With the ad sales of the podcast, which is 50% of our revenue for the business, I was only reporting on the click throughs when someone sponsors the show, we always send traffic from the audience through salesman.org/brand name. I can track it. I’ve got some metrics. I know other things are going terribly at worst or at least I know fingers trickling through or, obviously doing incredible on the other end of all this. I would only report at the very end and I had exactly what you described.
Will Barron:
Then note of when it’s all going well, great customer is happy at the end. They’ve had enough conversions. They’ve made profit on essentially the ad spend that they’ve had with us. Everyone’s happy. When things weren’t going so well, I was seeing this, but I wasn’t reporting it. Some of it was laziness because the reporting system that we’ve got is really crappy and archaic. So it’s a pain there to pull data from it. But there was clearly an element of me not wanting to look like I’ve done a bad job, that the ads aren’t performing, to avoid these difficult conversations. A year ago, again, I can’t remember who it was. Someone came on the show and said, you should report weekly. And it allows me to now catch when an advert isn’t performing as well as what either my expectations are, which is sometimes different from the customer, which again is a conversation that soon as you unveil, this reveal, this, you can dive into deeper and change either your expectations or theirs and align them.
Will Barron:
That was important. And then more important than all of this, just that weekly email. Most people sign up for three or four weeks, depending on how many shows you point out in that period. It gives me three or four extra touch points, which then potentially turn into conversations, which allow just very naturally for me to spend more time with that individual, whether it’s a marketing manager, whether it’s smaller companies that have sponsored the show, if it’s the CEO or CMO, and it builds a relationship. And it’s just a little bit more effort on my part has totally changed it. And we’ve had companies, Salesforce, HubSpot come with us and build well, Salesforce and HubSpot do a whole bunch of work of us. Now that’s nothing to do with the podcast anymore just because they like the interactions with me and how we’ve built the audience in the show.
Will Barron:
And they want to work with us on that front as well. This all came from more touch points, more opportunity for me to discover or uncover problems before they arise, even when I didn’t think it was a problem. Again, expectations not being met on either side and bouncing that out. And then I’m convinced if you spend enough time with someone, even if you think they’re a complete idiot at first, eventually you start liking them. I don’t know what that phenomenon is, but I’m pretty sure there’s something to that. The more time I spend with these individuals, deepen the relationship, the more business that comes out, the end of it. And it’s not that crazy complex, is it?
Speaker 2:
Well before you know it they’ll be coming over for barbecues. That’s the next step in your relationship with. It’s not that complex and it, and the way you described it simplified. And I think a lot of it’s our own fear. And I think if we decide that, or believe that this is going to work for them and it makes sense for them. And then we do everything we can to fulfil that thought, belief or confidence or conviction we’re doing the best that we can. Now, knowing every single one of them is not going to work. That’s unfortunate, but 90% of them do. That’s great. 80% that’s still great. There’s going to be a couple that just don’t work. But if they like you, they believe in you, they know you’re working hard for them to make it work. And you’re trying to find solutions above and beyond, absolutely.
Speaker 2:
I believe get your deal based on creativity, thoughtfulness, value, delivery, get your deal done. There’s a time to ask for that and say, “Hey, let’s sign the paperwork. Let’s get the deal. Let’s agree on this.” And sometimes you’ll leave a little stuff unfinished. You want to, and then let’s get the paperwork signed. Let’s decide we’re going to move forward. And let’s do a deep dive into all the greatness. And then because you don’t want to scare people away to, “Oh, well how about this detail and what happens if that happens?” Jump in the water with me. Let’s do business together. And then, the next week you’re picking up and say, “Okay, what are our KPIs? What are the expectations here? How do you want to communicate?” And that’s okay to do after the deal is signed. Because again, you don’t want to scare somebody away, but all the things that happen build the relationship.
Speaker 2:
You mentioned the word touchpoint. Those are critical. Have them. Hopefully get to a point where it’s okay. I have a client who’s based in Seattle, we’re in the middle of negotiating a deal right now. There was the unfortunate train wreck this week up in Seattle and it was awful. And I just called, my heart was like, “Oh, God, please don’t have been there or close set or be affected by that.” And I just called, she answered the phone and I said, “Hey, I just was thinking about you unlikely, but just hoping you weren’t close to that. She’s like, “Oh my God, thank you so much for the phone call. That was awesome.” That was it. That was it, yeah, that was it. And I think it was heartfelt and authentic and it goes a long way. And now we’re deeper than just, “Every time Noel calls me, he’s asking for something.” I thought about that after the fact, the thought was genuine, the intention was genuine. The action was genuine. The results are going to be deeper relationship.
Will Barron:
For sure. And there’s something you touched on there, which we’ve not got time to dive into and dissect now, but perhaps is a potential for a future topic and a future episode in that you shouldn’t be fearful of showing the customer how much work you’re doing. I think we hide some of the hustle that’s going on. And some of the hard work that we’re doing because we don’t want to sound like we’re either bragging or humble bragging, but I think that’s a potential to not even potential. I think that’s what we should be doing. We should be showing them the complete spectrum of value that we’re giving them. Because if we don’t perhaps put it in front of them, they can just not realise it. And this is a whole episode of reporting that perhaps we can do and how you show that and how you go back and forth. And again, we can keep that to another episode in the future.
Noel’s Advice to His Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [39:13]
Will Barron:
Because with that Noel, I’ve got one final question to ask everyone that comes on the show mate. And that is if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you’d give him to help him become better at selling?
Speaker 2:
One piece of advice, relationships make your relationships real. Be authentic with people, bring value to them. Don’t always ask them for something every time you talk to them, especially people that are in demand. Your clients are getting a lot of requests from lots of people that are bringing lots of stuff, create real relationships. It may not be in that exact moment that bears fruit for you. But it will, if you’re authentic about your approach to developing relationships with people that you think makes sense to do business with. It’s essential, it’s critical. It will serve you well in the long-term.
Will Barron:
What’s one piece of advice you’d give yourself that is nothing to do with relationship building? If we erase the conversation we just had right now or put that to the back of our minds, what’s another piece of sales advice you’d give to young yourself that is again, nothing to do with relationships?
“Courage is so essential for our ability to live the best, fullest, and most successful life we can. Don’t talk yourself off of doing something that could help you be extraordinary.” – Noel Wax · [40:43]
Speaker 2:
It’s one word, courage. Approach life with courage. Confidence I think is overstated because, it’s hard and you can’t courage challenge yourself, not me. Challenge yourself to do more, to be great, to have courage to don’t let fear debilitate or retard your process. Courage is so essential in our ability to live the best fullest, most successful life we can. Don’t talk yourself off of doing something that could help you be extraordinary.
Parting Thoughts · [40:55]
Will Barron:
Love it. Perfect. That’s what I was going for with that one. I really appreciate that, Noel. With that mate, tell us where we can find out more about you and what you’re up to and any other links or any kind of content links you want to share?
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I’d love people to check us out @groundswellgroup.com. I feel like we’re doing some amazing work in the world of socially responsible marketing. What we offer to people, both nonprofits and businesses is somebody wants a free consultation on how to develop a strategy around this idea of marketing that also does good in the world. I would love to talk to people. There’s absolutely no obligation with us whatsoever. I love the work. We have enough business right now. We’re doing just fine. But if I can help people do more in that world, it’s a new bucket of marketing that people haven’t really considered. It’s a crossover from what used to be referred to as corporate social responsibility. We’re @groundswellgroup.com. We’re on all the social sites, active on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, find us at Groundswell Group. It’s a really neat place. And I’d love to hear from some people thoughts and feedback on insight. If someone wants to reach out to me about sales tips, I’m happy to give that too, but that’s the place to find me and us and would love to hear from you.
Will Barron:
Awesome. Well, I will link to all of that in the show note to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that note, I thank you for your time, mate. Genuinely love you back out and I enjoyed this one and yeah, I want to thank you for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Speaker 2:
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Keep up the great work.
