Dr. Tasha Eurich is an organisational psychologist, researcher, and New York Times best-selling author of INSIGHT. On today’s episode of The Salesman Podcast, we discuss the science behind self-awareness and how being self aware can make you a better salesperson.
Featured on this episode:
Resources:
- Tasha’s book: INSIGHT
- @tashaeurich
- TashaEurich.com
- Tasha’s TED talk
Transcript
Will Barron:
Do you know one of the secrets of sales and business success? It is self-awareness. And in this episode of The Salesman Podcast, we’re diving into the science and the practical steps of how you can achieve it. Hello sales nation, welcome to today’s episode of The Salesman Podcast. On today’s show, we have Tasha Eurich author of Insight. And on today’s show, we’re diving into self-awareness. We’re diving into what self-awareness actually is, whether it’s an internal thing, whether it’s a perception that other people put onto you, whether you think you’re good at things, or whether they know you are good or bad at things, we’re diving into the science of it. And essentially how it all ties into success, not just in sales, not just in business, but hitting your life goals, hitting your values and a whole lot more. So of all that said, let’s jump straight in. Tasha, welcome to The Salesman Podcast.
Tasha Eurich:
Thanks for having me, great to be here.
What is Self-awareness? · [01:01]
Will Barron:
You’re more than welcome. I’m glad to have you on. I’m glad to dive into something that is not directly 100% selling, but it is business and it is life, but it will tie back into selling towards the end of the show, just to precursor this for the audience. We’re going to talk about self-awareness, we’re going to talk about self insights, and where I want to start is by perhaps a bit of a definition of what is self-awareness. Is it when you wake up one morning… And I’ve had this numerous times have happened to me of I wake up and have the realisation that I’m an idiot. Is that what self-awareness is or is it more subtle or complex than that?
“The definition of self-awareness is really two things. Number one, knowing who I am, what I want, what’s important to me internally. And number two, understanding how other people see me.” – Tasha Eurich · [01:58]
Tasha Eurich:
Oh, absolutely. It is not self-loathing and it’s so funny because… So I’ve been doing a very intensive scientific study on self-awareness for about the last three years now. And one of the most common things I hear from people is exactly what you just said of I want to be self-aware, but I’m scared. I don’t want to see those ugly parts of myself. So let me start with the definition and then give a really important caveat for that. So the definition of self-awareness is really two things. Number one, knowing who I am, what I want, what’s important to me internally. And number two, understanding how other people see me.
Tasha Eurich:
And there’s a lot of research. I’m sure we can go into this, that those two things are not always the same information, but stepping back and just looking more broadly at self-awareness. The people who see themselves clearly from my research, also saw themselves compassionately. So it was really interesting. They have a level of humility to say, I’m not perfect. And here are the things that I’m just not great at. Here are the things I am great at and I respect and appreciate myself anyway. So it’s not boundless self-esteem, it’s seeing ourselves clearly and loving ourselves in spite of ourselves.
The Difference Between Perception and Self Awareness · [02:52]
Will Barron:
And you might be able to explain perhaps how you measure this, which would perhaps explain it, but how much of this is perception versus hard facts of, if I say I’m a great leader, people could perceive that I’m a great leader, but I could be terrible. And I could from their feedback perceive that I’m a good leader because people are following me, but that might not actually true.
Tasha Eurich:
There is a challenge in any psychological research that is exactly that, which is basically you’re measuring perception, which is not always reality. And so what I tell people is you’ve really got to take a lot of different data points. Obviously you should listen to yourself first and foremost to say, what do I care about? What do I want to do? What makes me happy? And we should get some more objective data on things like, how we’re showing up or what we’re doing well, or even our personalities, or how is our behaviour reflecting our passions. And that’s really where I think you can start to assemble a picture of yourself.
Tasha Eurich:
And the analogy I give in my book is of a prism. So you remember from science class, you would shine a white light through it and out the other side would come a rainbow? That’s the way I look at this, is with every new angle or new perspective, we get a richer more complete picture of who we are. And there are some people we might want to listen to more than others, like for your audience, your clients, or your prospects, but we should listen and we should listen with an open mind.
How Individuals Can Discern Whether or Not They’re Self Aware · [04:10]
Will Barron:
How do we know if we are self aware or not? And loaded in with that question, are people thinking that they’re self-aware when they’re not?
“95% of people think that they’re self aware, but the real figure is closer to 10 to 15%. So on a good day, my joke is 80% of us are lying to ourselves about whether we’re lying to ourselves.” – Tasha Eurich · [04:45]
Tasha Eurich:
The answer is yes. The preface I’ll give though is it’s not as simple as saying I’m self-aware or I’m not self-aware, but for the purposes of making my research sexy, right? One of the things we did is we looked at what percentage of people label themselves as self-aware versus what percentage of people, according to our numbers and cutoffs actually meet that threshold. So what we found is 95% of people think that they’re self aware, but the real figure is closer to 10 to 15%. So on a good day, my joke is we’re 80% of us are lying to ourselves about whether we’re lying to ourselves.
Will Barron:
I love that.
“What I don’t want people to do is say, well, being self-aware means seeing myself for all the horrible things I do. It’s really just taking a step back and trying to see a little bit more clearly and looking at that as a daily journey. If I can know myself 1% better every week, just imagine the impact that that’s going to have.” – Tasha Eurich · [05:06]
Tasha Eurich:
Which is sort of stunning, but what I don’t want people to do is say, well, being self-aware again means seeing myself for all the horrible things I do. It’s really just taking a step back and trying to see a little bit more clearly. And looking at that as a daily journey. If I can know myself 1% better every week, just imagine the impact that that’s going to have.
The Process for Cultivating and Developing Self Awareness · [05:20]
Will Barron:
And is this a process that we can put into place in that I’m super analytical before we click record then, I just briefly mentioned that I’ve got a degree in chemistry. My background is in chemistry and then chemical sales, which led me down this path. So I’m super into and super down on process. Is this something that we’d learned to do ourselves over time that 10%, or is it something that our parents instil into us perhaps? There’s obviously a nature-nurture discussion to be had here, but I’m just intrigued as to the people who do this somewhat naturally. Is it something they’ve learnt themselves to cope with something else? Or is it something that their parents or genes or something else is instilled into them?
“There is evidence that self-aware parents tend to raise more self-aware kids. But one thing that I’ve learned in my research that I find really inspiring actually is the fact that self-awareness is like a muscle. It’s a skill that if we spend time cultivating it and working it out, almost anybody can improve.” – Tasha Eurich · [06:02]
Tasha Eurich:
There is evidence that self-aware parents tend to raise more self-aware mature kids. But one thing that I’ve learned in my research that I find really inspiring actually is the fact that it’s like a muscle. It’s a skill that if we spend time cultivating it and working it out so to speak, almost anybody can improve. And so what I did actually in my research, one of the main focus areas was I searched the world far and wide for people who basically didn’t start out as self-aware, but were able to make these really dramatic improvements and transformations. And what we found in studying those people were some myths around self-awareness sort of what it takes and how you don’t get there.
“The research on this is really clear. Self-aware people are happier, they’re more successful. They’re more confident, they get more promotions, they’re better leaders, they’re better salespeople, and they actually even lead more profitable companies. So if we could just work a little bit harder every day, I think almost any of us can make a pretty dramatic improvement over time.” – Tasha Eurich · [07:03]
Tasha Eurich:
We found some roadblocks that not a lot of people see every day, but the overall message there is if we have a daily commitment to see ourselves clearly, to do the work, to be a little braver, maybe than we would want to be, we just reap the benefits. And the research on this is really clear. Self-aware people are happier, they’re more successful. They’re more confident, they get more promotions, they’re better leaders, they’re better sales people, and they actually even lead more profitable companies. So if we could just work a little bit harder every day, I think almost any of us can make a pretty dramatic improvement over time.
The Link Between Self Awareness and Sales Success · [07:30]
Will Barron:
So I want to get onto how we can perhaps do this. Any tips, any again, process to put some of this into place? But from what you just said, then Tasha, how does being self-aware and feel free to get super doorman basic with this. Just so I’m on track, but how does being self-aware, knowing one’s self, knowing perhaps our strengths and weaknesses, how does that translate into, for example, business success or sales success?
Tasha Eurich:
So think about a salesperson. Maybe let’s just paint a picture of the most self-aware salesperson on the planet, right? And this is where everybody should aspire to be. So they have seven types of knowledge about themselves that are going to give them a unique edge in their work. So one is they know what they value, and that’s really important because I think our values really guide our behaviour. And so if for example, this self-aware salesperson knows that they value building relationships, that’s going to be a really important piece of the sales process, right? So values is one. The second is our passions. What are we passionate about? And a self-aware sales person hopefully would be passionate about selling, otherwise you are maybe not in the right business. Number three, they understand their aspirations. And that means what do I want to sort to experience and achieve? What type of salesperson do I want to be, or even just what goals and targets am I trying to hit?
Tasha Eurich:
The next is knowing the environment where they’re most successful. And I think that really can impact sales. I tell a couple stories in my book of people who were in sales roles, in a company culture that was completely wrong for where they saw their strengths. Yeah. And so it’s really important. And then the others are our patterns of behaviour, our strengths and weaknesses, and the impact we have on other people. And the farther along down that list you get, the more important it becomes for sales people to know how they’re coming across. So you should be able to come into a room, read the room, read the way people are responding to you and have that really help you build those relationships and close those sales.
Will Barron:
What’s interesting of this is I jotted down as you were getting further through those values or those… How would you call them? A pillar of…
Happiness and Self-awareness: Self Aware People Tend to Be Happier Than The Rest of the Population · [09:40]
Tasha Eurich:
I call the seven pillars of insight, is what I call.
Will Barron:
So each of those pillars of insights, it’s getting more and more business oriented, but the top end of it, you’ve got value and passion. And they’re the things that really drive… I know for me and I guess for a lot of the audience, it drives the motivation, which allows you to do the other things, which allows you to work in what is a somewhat stressful role, perhaps highly compensated, but allows you to do it for a longer period of time. Well, this leads me to perhaps a more philosopher question of, do you have less happiness and just a worse life if you don’t know what your values and your passions are, is the data to link happiness with understanding why you are here?
Tasha Eurich:
I think all of us are on that quest. I think some of us work harder than others, right? The people that I studied that make this commitment every day. I do believe and the research supports this, that the clear we are on what makes us happy and what we want out of our lives, the more confidence and fulfilled we’re going to be. And you think about those two types of self-awareness I mentioned earlier, there’s that internal clarity. And then that clarity about how other people see us. What I found is some people are clearer on one than the other, you can sort of make archetypes. There’s the person who’s low in both, I call them seekers, they’ve got a lot of work to do. They’re just beginning their journey. There’s people who are high on both, and that’s the ultimate goal.
Tasha Eurich:
But then there are people, for example, who, and I might imagine some of your audience could resonate with this. So they do all this work to see how they’re perceived and how they’re seen, because it’s important for their job, but maybe they’re not doing as much work on getting to know themselves and seeing themselves clearly to your point of what do you value? What do you really want out of life? The same is true if you reverse it, you’ve got those classic introspective type people who are like, oh, I totally am in touch with myself, but then they might not have any idea how they’re coming across to other people. So that’s another really important exercise, just to start with, to say, where am I with each of these two types of self knowledge? Am I maybe focusing on one more than the other? And if so, how can I change that?
Will Barron:
It’s interesting. I’m visualising characters as you’re going through this and the person who knows themself very well, but perhaps doesn’t care about how anyone else feels about them. And so they don’t investigate that. That’s someone in like a rock band or something crazy like that, versus someone who doesn’t know themself, but cares about other people. And this obviously a stereotype, and there’s probably some truth to this I imagine, but that could be a doctor or a nurse who is constantly making other people safe, happy, fixed, well, versus spending a little bit of time on themselves.
Should We Care About What People Think of Us? · [12:48]
Will Barron:
And they were just the two things that came to mind. A salesperson, obviously, if you’ve got a horrible idiot, manipulating salesperson could be on one side, if you’ve got a sappy salesperson that isn’t closing any deals, they’re probably on the other side. So there’s clearly a balance here, but this leads me two, should we… Or one, should we care what people think about us? Or two, is what you’re describing just a tool that we can take that information and do what we like of it versus do we have to be bothered that someone thinks that we’re loud or someone that thinks that we’re quiet.
“If we want to have strong personal relationships, if we want to have strong professional relationships, we absolutely have to understand, whether right or wrong, what the perceptions people have of our behaviour are real.” – Tasha Eurich · [13:28]
Tasha Eurich:
Yes, is the short answer to both of those questions. This is an unpopular opinion that I share sometimes. And not everyone agrees with me, but you know those in inspirational quotes that you see on Pinterest or Instagram that say things like, what other people think of you as none of your business. And that is so wonderful and so idealistic. But I think it’s not the world that we live in, right? If we want to have strong personal relationships, if we want to have strong professional relationships, we absolutely have to understand whether it’s right or wrong, what the perceptions people have of our behaviour really are.
Tasha Eurich:
And so, from my perspective, I always tell people, you should get this data and you should treat it as data. If one person tells you that you’re pushy, for example, don’t go off and sign up for a bunch of emotional intelligence classes that day. Maybe think about it a little bit, maybe be on the lookout for that behaviour on your own. Even more importantly, talk to a couple of other people who know you well and see if they see it, too. And typically, you know-
The Best People to Ask for Feedback on Your Personality · [14:12]
Will Barron:
Sorry to interrupt you. Who are the best people to ask on this? Because if I ask my dad, he’s going to very much be… He is going be real straight with me, like a real sharp shooter. But if I would’ve asked my mom when she was still here, she would’ve told me that I was wonderful and there’s nothing wrong with me. And I’m incredible. And probably why I’m somewhat confident and happier myself as an adult is probably 30 years of that growing up. But who should we be asking? We’ll start to get more practical now and give some advice for the audience, but who should they be asking for this outside feedback?
“One of the most surprising findings from my research with those highly self-aware people was how picky they were about who they asked for feedback and who they listened to feedback from. And so, you think about it, not all feedback is going to be well intentioned.” – Tasha Eurich · [14:50]
Tasha Eurich:
One of the most surprising findings from my research with those highly self-aware people that made those transformations, was how picky they were about who they asked for feedback from and who they listened to feedback from. And so, you think about it, not all feedback is going to be well intentioned. And to your point, not all feedback is really going to get at the crux of the issue. So the characteristics that I suggest people find are really three things. So for someone to be providing you good feedback, the first thing they need to do is have a strong trusting relationship with you. And specifically there, it’s saying, am I confident that this person has my best interest at heart? Because feedback can be used as a weapon. And most people are good and trying to do the best they can, but that’s not always the case.
Tasha Eurich:
And so you really have to be cognizant of that. The second thing you want to figure out is will this person tell you the truth? It might be that they’ve told you, you had spinach in your teeth during a meeting, or you’ve seen them raise a really tough truth, maybe at a meeting, that is something that you can look at their past behaviour and make your best guess. The third thing is, are they exposed to the behaviour that you want to be getting feedback on? So again, I could ask my mom, what kind of a speaker I am and just like your mom, she would say, I’m the best ever, but she’s no not there, right? She’s not observing that behaviour. And so I think those three things are what I suggest as people start to zero in who are these people. And I like to call them loving critics, loving critics.
Situational Determinants of Behaviour · [16:25]
Will Barron:
And how situational is this in that… And you might dive into personality types or… Because I’m really enjoying this. Do you need to ask people this at work, ask the people from home the same question, ask your friends the same question, because I’m assuming we act differently, even if we’re not cognizant that we do, we probably act differently in different scenarios. I know act slightly differently here on the podcast, as you do, as well, there’s a camera in both our faces, we’re going on the record, somewhat, obviously we edit the shows where we need to, but we’re probably acting different than if we’d had two pints and we’re sat at the bar talking about psychology and that side of things. So I guess what I’m getting at is, how situational is all of this? And then do we need to work backwards from, I want improve X, Y, Z. So then you need to work backwards from, well, I do X, Y, Z in this situation, this location, so I need to focus on there.
Tasha Eurich:
I love that question. And there’s so many pieces to it. I want to bite off the first one, which is this idea that we might vary our behaviour across different situations. And just to be concrete, maybe I’ll use the personality trait of introversion or extroversion. So I, myself am an introvert and most people who see me up on stage would be really surprised to learn that, but I am a lot more comfortable in quiet time, reflecting than I am going to a party after I’ve had a really long day. That doesn’t mean though that I can’t put on my extrovert hat in the situations that that is going to be socially required of me. And so in that case, my main pattern is introversion, but depending on the situation and what it’s asking of me, I can flex my behaviour.
Tasha Eurich:
So the first thing I tell people is, think about your patterns over time and where you feel like you’re being the most yourself. If you’re at work, similarly, you might not be the most talkative person, but you also know that you need to build relationships. So you take the time to do that. So I think part of it is just saying, what is the way I show up that creates energy for me rather than takes it away? So that’s the first thing. The second thing I’d say though, and I’ve been an organisational psychologist for almost the last 15 years. And one of the things I do is coach executives. And sometimes when I’m working with an executive, they might get some tough feedback from their team. Their team might say, oh my gosh, this guy’s a total jerk.
Tasha Eurich:
And then I have to sit down and say, here’s what your team thinks of you. But a lot of times what I get back from them is something to the effect of, well, I’m only this way at work. There’s no way that my family would say this about me. And I usually say, okay, let’s put a little friendly wager on it, why don’t you go home and share this feedback with your family, and let me know what they think. And a lot of times, it might not be as extreme, but they will say things like, wow, I guess I’m kind of a jerk to them, too. And no one was saying anything to me about it. So we do have these patterns that follow us around. And I think that’s the trick, is not to assume that we’re going to be the same thing in all situations, but to start to look for those patterns.
How to Find a Genuine and Loving Critique to Get Productive Feedback From · [19:40]
Will Barron:
Amazing. Amazing. And are there any questions that we should be asking if you were to give out… And we’ll talk about your quiz as well, or talk about it now, if you like, if that’s the best way to go about it, but is there any questions that we should be asking that… How to describe it… Encourage people to give open answers and are safe questions but you can still get a deep response from though.
Tasha Eurich:
Yeah, I think, and I talk about this a lot in the book because it’s not the simplest process. It is something that you can do, but there’s a lot of pieces to it. I think the best advice I would give in addition to finding that loving critic is being as specific as possible about what you’re asking. So if you walk up to a coworker and say, hey, do you have any feedback for me on how I’m doing? They’re not going to know what you want to learn. Are you a snappy dresser? Do you tell funny jokes? Are you a good presenter? So really to say, to sit down and reflect a little bit and say, given where I want to take my life or my career, what are the things that I’m going to need to just be amazing at, and thinking about zeroing in on those.
Tasha Eurich:
So if I’m a salesperson, I’m going to need to be an excellent presenter. Start there, start small, start narrow, and then find some people who are loving critics in that domain. And then you can actually start talking to them about, I want you to watch me in the next meeting and let me know if you’re willing, of course, they have to be willing participants. But you can ask them, can you watch me and tell me what you think I’m doing that’s helping me and anything I could do to make me better. And I think the more focused we are, the easier it is for the other person to be honest with us, but the easier it is for us to accept and process and incorporate that feedback as well.
When Are You Most Yourself? · [21:30]
Will Barron:
So I want to move on to the inner game here and sussing out, I guess, who we really are from the inside out like the parallel to what we’ve been talking about so far, which is essentially other people’s thoughts and opinions on us. But before we do that, and this will tear it up. You mentioned before, use the words or the phrase when you are most yourself, how do you… And it seems like it’s a crazy question to ask. It’s a question that a four-year-old asks their parent, but how do you know when you are yourself? Is this a gut feeling? I think you touched on it of when you feel energised, do you feel most comfortable? How do you know when that moment is? Because clearly that’s the real centre point of all this and everything else is attached onto the outside of it.
Tasha Eurich:
It is. And I think there’s a lot that goes into that, but at the risk of oversimplifying it, what I would say is what’s giving you energy and what’s taking energy away. I think about when I was in the Fortune 500 worlds, I was exhausted at the end of every day in jobs that weren’t a fit for me. And I was energised at the end of every day, even despite my introversion, because I was doing something that I loved, or I was able to show up in a way that helped me feel accepted and seen and appreciated. And I think that’s really the ultimate measure is, is are you gaining energy the way you’re living your life? Or is your life taking away that energy?
Will Barron:
It’s fascinating because there’ll be people listening now who perhaps haven’t seen that flip side. So for me, working in medical device sales, I went from one company that was crazy micromanaged. It was a Japanese company, so that all Japanese philosophies wrapped up in all that, as in you leave the meeting. So I’ve just sat with a surgeon for an hour. We’ve just had a good conversation, a cup of coffee. We’ve talked about endoscopes, talked about his future plans for the department. I would be expected to then pull up a chair outside the kind of a waiting room where I’ve just been speaking to him and document typing down in this really junky, terrible CRMs system. And then I move from that company to their biggest competitor who had no CRM. It was get out there, close the deals. If you don’t, you getting fired kind of different pay scales of one was super capped.
Will Barron:
And so they preferred you to just document and go through the process and over the course of 10 years, the process works and they knew that, and there was science behind it. The other side of it was essentially, other than me, they had a load of ex athletes and they wanted people just to really go out with… They can just really crush sales and dive in and be super aggressive with it. And I’m somewhere in between the two of, I liked the process and I liked the freedom, essentially, the micromanaging really drains on me, but it was only really when I started the podcast and doing everything I’m doing essentially became a media company so that there was this element of face to face, there’s element of how do you describe it? No, I was going to use…
Will Barron:
And I’m obviously… I hate using the word, but I’ll use it. Because I can’t think of anything better, but there’s an element of celebrity to it of when I go to a sales conference, everyone knows me there, but I walk out of the sales conference and no one gives a shit who I am. So I’m trying not to make it sound like I’m inflating my own head here, but that gives me energy of people coming up and saying hello and saying that they enjoy the show. And then there’s far reaching consequences of that. I’ve had numerous people come over to me and say, I left my sales role because I listened to the podcast. I knew it wasn’t right for me. And now I’m in a far better place. So with all that said, I didn’t realise what really motivated me and energised me until I just had enough of feeling not great.
Self Awareness 101: Is Whatever It Is That You’re Doing Right For You? · [24:47]
Will Barron:
And again, it was this gut feeling of, I know this role isn’t quite right for me, but I knew building a company. And obviously I sell the ad space on the podcast. I still sell all the projects initiatives and all the partnership work that we do. So I’m still selling, that hasn’t changed, but it’s the dynamics of it. So long story short here Tasha, how do we know whether what we’re doing is right for us, if we haven’t experienced the grass is greener on the other side effect of this?
Tasha Eurich:
And that’s the catch 22, I think, right? So here would be one tool that I would offer. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our current situation, especially if it’s making us miserable, that we lose the greater perspective. And so what I think we can do is using a tool I call comparing and contrasting. What you can do is say, all right, I am miserable right now in my job, but let me think back really to every other job I’ve had and do a little comparing and say, my first job ever out of school was I happier? Was I less happy than I am now?
Tasha Eurich:
And you can start to paint a picture and say for the things where I was happier, what were the common themes or the areas that I was just absolutely miserable? What were the common themes? And that way, when we look at patterns across our lives, there’s sometimes a lot more data there than we even think, because we don’t ask ourselves those types of questions, we get so wrapped up in the here and now that there’s a lot of insight in the patterns.
Will Barron:
Love it. So I did something similar to this, and I think it was Tony Robbins’ exercise. Half the audience are going to turn off as I go through this, but it sounds a little bit hippy. It sounds a little bit ridiculous, but it had genuine impact on me. And this was… And it’s similar to what you described there, I realised that from being micromanaged to not being micromanaged, I was happier. And then obviously from the leap to being not managed at all, to not having a boss make me happier again, but Tony Robbins, he obviously branded it or called it something. But essentially it was an exercise of just pacing your life as it is, close your eyes, have to think about it five years forward. Are you happy with where you are in five years? And I think most people probably go, well, comfortable, it’s grown reasonable, but then you pace it 10 years, then 20 years, then 30 years.
Will Barron:
And depending on how old you are, you’re probably struggling to visualise this at that point. And I realised that I couldn’t have achieved what I wanted to achieve in my last sales role by… No matter how much money I saved and how early I managed to retire, it was not going to be able to give me the life I wanted. And for kids that I don’t have yet, they don’t exist. And my partner and all this kind of all tied together. And it was a real visualising and crystallised moment for me. And that was about a week before I left the job and start the company. And that was clearly your visualising forward. But as you described, and this is why it came to mind, you’re using data from the past to make those future projections.
Will Barron:
And now I’ve got no idea where I’m going to be in five years time, because everything’s moving at such fast pace and that’s now super exciting to me versus knowing… And this might be different for different people. People might like the security. I know my girlfriend, she’s a doctor. She doesn’t want any deviation from becoming a consultant to being a consultant for 20 years. That’s what makes her comfortable and happy versus I’m the opposite. If that was my path, if that was what I’d line myself up for, I’d go nuts. And I’d always be looking to ways to hack it, to change it.
The Benefits of Self Questioning and Understanding Your Why · [28:40]
Will Barron:
So obviously it’s different for different people. But as you said that, I’m looking back at previous data. It struck me that that was an exercise that I did, that had profound impacts on me. Moving forward from this end Tasha, is there a case that we should would spend… And I don’t know how long would this take. Is there a case that we should spend a Sunday afternoon with a pen and paper writing down, obviously buy your book and go through that and get these pillars and jot down what are values, passions, goals actually are, because I think most people could give you what they think their passion is in the moment, but we are talking overarching passions here over decades or lifetimes.
Tasha Eurich:
Yes. And I think if we do… Even just think about five to 10 minutes a day, the way I have it organised in the book is kind of pillar by pillar. So you don’t have to tackle them all at once. You really can start with one, if you have five minutes that day, there’s a couple questions to ask yourself and really work through it. But I think part of it is also asking yourself the right questions. This isn’t something probably we have time to get into, but there’s this whole area of research that says asking ourselves why questions. For example, why do I value what I value? Not only is misleading to us, but it can sometimes depress us and make us feel stuck. Right? So I think it’s not enough to just sit down and say, I’m going to start writing and therefore I will have insight, but we have to ask ourselves the right questions in the right way. [crosstalk 00:30:04].
The Negative Effects of Asking Yourself ‘Why’ · [30:06]
Will Barron:
Sorry to interrupt, but I’m intrigued to this now. Why is it that asking why can have that seemingly negative effect? Is it knocking our certainty in what we decided? Are we setting ourselves up to doubt what we’d committed to as a value or a passion perhaps?
Tasha Eurich:
So let me give you an example. Let’s say that I am passed up for a promotion at work and I’m devastated. Right? I really, really wanted it. I thought I was going to get it. What’s the first question I might ask in the debrief? Why? Why didn’t I get this promotion? And maybe I’m feeling extra self-aware and I even want to go seek some therapy to figure out what was really going on there? Just to get a different perspective. So maybe I go into therapy and I realise that as I dig deeper and deeper, it’s really about the first grade spelling bee that I won. And all the eyes were on me and really, I just fear success. And that’s really my problem. Now, obviously that’s a comical example, but it’s very similar to what I hear a lot of people doing when they do this deep psychological excavation.
Tasha Eurich:
There’s a couple problems with that. Number one is, even though it feels true, whatever answer we find, more times than not, we can’t excavate our unconscious. We can’t figure out why am I the way I am? And so the energy that we spend trying to find out is even if it feels true, it may or may not actually be the real reason. The second reason that it’s dangerous is it gets us stuck in a loop. Even just going back to your past and saying, why am I the way I am it doesn’t help us move forward with intention and purpose. So the example I would give instead of why didn’t I get the promotion might be, well, what can I do moving forward to make sure that I’m better positioned?
“Generally, ‘why’ questions get us trapped in the past and in a spiral and ‘what’ questions push us forward to have insight and purpose and really strategize and build our own success and our own lives.” · [32:16]
Tasha Eurich:
Or what loving critics am I going to choose to give me some feedback? Or what’s the type of conversation I can have with the hiring manager and just learn a little bit more about why I wasn’t the right fit. So I think a little bit of it is semantics, but generally why questions get us trapped in the past and in a spiral and what questions push us forward to have insight and purpose and really strategize and build our own success and our own lives.
How Do We Know When We Have Hit the Truth And Whether We Should Act on it? · [32:45]
Will Barron:
I’m going to derail you one last time here. And then I want you to give us a couple of questions, perhaps we can ask ourselves each day just to kickstart this process or the highest leverage questions perhaps we’ll come answer that, but just to derail slightly further, and we’ll bring you back on track. If it’s not always the truth when we have these realisations, when we’re digging deep into our brain as most people do after half a bottle of wine and conversation with friends, how do we know when we have hit a truth?
Will Barron:
How do we know going back to the, again, the comic example that I use when we started the show of you wake up and you go, I’ve been an idiot for the past six months, I need to change and do X, Y, Z. How do we know when that our subconscious has done all the processing and that is the response that it’s fed up to the rest of the brain? How do we know when that is the truth? How do we know when we should act on it? Because that’s clearly the step to build momentum and make changes here.
Tasha Eurich:
That’s such a good question. What I would say is 99% of those moments of insight, as long as we’re not asking those why questions and misleading ourselves. If we have that feeling of clarity, even little things. I tell the story in the book of this woman who had just graduated from college and she and her roommate were unpacking their kitchen and she hovered outside of her body and heard her yelling at her friends for stacking the cups a certain way. And she just had this moment of clarity of, oh my God, I am a really controlling person.
Tasha Eurich:
So it’s even in those little tiny, everyday insights, I think we should trust ourselves. And what I wouldn’t want people to do is question those things to the point of it not being useful. But what I think about is, it’s a hypothesis, right? Okay. So my hypothesis is I’m controlling. How can I learn more about that? Maybe I can ask my friends or maybe I can pay attention to my behaviour for the next week and see if I can spot anything. So I think that’s really the message there is to hold onto those moments and use them as an opportunity to even go deeper and get more data.
Will Barron:
Love it. Applying the scientific method to something that is almost seemingly intangible as our brains and our thoughts. I love it. Okay. So we’ll wrap-
Tasha Eurich:
That’s my job. Yes.
Daily Check-Ins When Boosting Your Self Awareness · [34:50]
Will Barron:
… We’ll wrap up with this Tasha of if we could ask ourselves one or two questions each morning. So just for context, I’m always banging onto the audience that they should have some meditation practise. It could be headspace.com. It could be just having five minutes to themselves. It could be going for a run or listening to music, whatever it is. And I’m also banging onto the audience that I get great benefit out of writing down five things that I’m grateful for each morning. It takes 30, 40 seconds to run through them. The first two or three are ridiculous of, I’m glad I’ve got food. I’m glad I’ve got a roof over my head.
Will Barron:
And then they get more nuanced and more resting as I go down that list. So to tack onto the end of this morning ritual, this morning routine, what’s a couple of questions that we can ask ourselves to even set ourselves up for the day to become more self-aware rather than just go through the day with our head down and be this weird corporate drone, just trying to sell anyone that we can get our hands on.
Tasha Eurich:
You know what? I would even get a leg up and give them an exercise to do the night before that day, especially because I think so many people just get swept up in emails or their kids or making breakfast. Sometimes the night is the quietest time where the 10 minutes before we go to bed or even our commute home if you drive to work or take the train, the questions, I think really three things, very simple. And I’m not a big fan of over complicating things or trying to take on habits that aren’t sustainable. So I call them daily check-ins.
Tasha Eurich:
The first question is what went well today? The second question is what didn’t go so well. And the third question is, how can I be smarter tomorrow? And I think focusing there again, it’s not, why did today go well and getting into that spiral. It’s just saying, as I scanned through my day, what went well? What didn’t go well, and what am I going to learn to apply tomorrow? And I think those three questions, even if you ask yourself most days are really going to give you a leg up.
Will Barron:
Love it. And I guess if you’re writing this down, you’ve got a documented history of something, say work, you hate work, it’s really annoying you, but you suck it up and then by the time you get home, you forget about it. You relax, you hang out with your partner, your kids, or whatever you’re doing. You go and shoot clay pigeons or race cars or whatever you’re into. I don’t know why those both came to mind then. I guess if you’re writing it down, it’s probably a nice thing to look over of if you are looking at changing careers, jobs, if you’re looking at taking that step up that promotion, you can look back at three months of, I hate my job. I hate my job or whatever it is. And that’s the evidence that we’re looking for. Isn’t it?
Tasha Eurich:
Oh my gosh. Talk about patterns. If you’ve got it all written down, the patterns will set you free I think.
Tasha’s Advise to Her Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [37:38]
Will Barron:
Amazing. I like that. That is a quote card in itself. Patterns will set you free. Love it. Okay. Tasha with that. I’ve got one final question to ask everyone that comes on the show. I know you’re not an out and out salesperson, but clearly everyone has to sell. Everyone has to be able to put their point across and get other people to either agree or buy into it. So I’m going to ask you anyway, and that is, if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be one piece of advice you’d give her to help her become better at selling?
Tasha Eurich:
Better at selling? I think the main piece of advice that I would give myself overall would also apply to sales and it’s just relax, just calm down. And it’s not a matter of trying to get the sale or being pushy, but I think I’m like this now, but to a lesser extent where you just put so much pressure on yourself that it’s insurmountable. If you have targets that no human being can reasonably achieve, it’s not going to set you up for success. Not to say that we should all have low standards, but I think there are a lot of people listening that might sympathise to say the expectations I set for myself and others sometimes are so high that it can be really difficult or suboptimal. So that’s what I would probably tell myself.
Parting Thoughts · [39:15]
Will Barron:
I’m 100% in that camp. And I know just the very nature of a podcast that sales people are listening to. It’s only going to be typically the people who are pushing the limits of the sales skills that are going to seek out a show like this. So whether they are high achieving now or aspiring to be high achieving, I think there’s probably quite a few people that just took a deep breath as you said that and went, you’re probably right. Need to just chill out a little bit more. It’ll come when it comes. So with that Tasha, tell us a little bit about the book, we’ve touched on it, and then you’ve got a quiz for us as well, which will hopefully give us some insight. So tell us where we can find that as well.
Tasha Eurich:
So if anyone wants to learn more about the book, it’s called Insight and the website is insight-book.com. There’s a lot of resources in there, but what I would plug specifically is if your listeners are intrigued about their level of self-awareness, I have a quick and dirty assessment. It takes less than five minutes, but basically you fill out 14 questions and then you send a quiz to someone who knows you well. One of those loving critics and they fill it out. And when both of those are in the system, it spits out a report that says, here’s your current high level self-awareness and here are couple things to do to help you get started right away. They can find that at Insight, the word insight-quiz.com. So we’ve been getting some really good feedback on it. It’s just kind of a fun, quick thing, but I think it’s one of the ways to make that commitment to yourself, to see yourself more clearly.
Will Barron:
Good stuff. I’ll link to both them in the show notes this episode of salesmanpodcast.com. And with that, Tasha, I want to thank you for a genuinely fascinating show. I really appreciate your insights in all this. And I want to thank you for joining us on The Salesman Podcast.
Tasha Eurich:
Thank you. It was really a pleasure. Happy to be here.
