Stephen M. R. Covey is the best selling author of The Speed of Trust and trust is exactly what we’re dissecting in this episode of The Salesman Podcast.
Stephen shares how we can use trust as a tool to break through all the stressful, time consuming and non-enjoyable parts of the sales process to focus on adding value and getting deals done.
Featured on this episode:
Resources:
- SpeedOfTrust.com
- @StephenMRCovey
- Stephen’s book – The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything
Transcript
Will Barron:
Do you want to know the one secret that makes sales easier the more you do it? In this episode, we’re going to show you exactly what is and how to implement it.
Will Barron:
Hello sellzation. And welcome to today’s episode of the Salesman podcast. On today’s show, we have Stephen, M.R. Covey, author of The Speed of Trust, which you can find on Amazon and over @thespeedoftrust.com. And trust is the hack that makes all of selling business just relationships in general easier. We’re diving into what trust is? How you can instil it into your life and how you can share with others that you are trustworthy, how you can be proactive about it all. And so with all that said, let’s jump in to today’s conversation. Stephen, welcome to the Salesman podcast.
Stephen:
Hi, thank you Will. Delighted to be with you.
What is Trust? · [01:24]
Will Barron:
I’m delighted to have you on, I’m enjoying this conversation already. I’m glad to have you on to talk about a topic which is both applicable in sales business. And then as a man, and I guess as a woman, if you want to frame it that way, I think it’s something that is defining as you as a person. And I feel when I’m going to talk about trust, when I feel like I am… When people trust me I feel like that’s the strongest I am as a man as a person. I’m keen to dive into how we can distil this down from the obvious so perhaps the subtleties and not so obvious. But with all that said, let’s start from the very beginning here. We all know it, we all feel it, but what is trust?
“Trust is confidence. In fact in many languages, trust and confidence are the exact same word, like in Spanish, French, the same word. And it’s important to understand where that confidence is coming from. And I suggest it comes from two sources, having both character and competence. If you have one, but lack the other, you will not sustain the trust” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [01:48]
Stephen:
It is a good question because people will come up with all kinds of different answers to that. And here’s a very simple way of thinking about it. Trust is confidence, confidence. In fact in many languages, trust and confidence are the exact same word, like in Spanish, French, same word. In English, we have two words for trust, confidence. So another way to think about it Will, is let’s look at the opposite of trust. So the opposite of trust is suspicion, that’s distrust, suspicion. I don’t trust someone if I’m suspicious, say about their agenda. What’s their agenda here? Or what if I’m suspicious about their integrity or maybe their lack thereof? Or what if I suspicious about their ability to perform, to deliver, to come through, to do what they say they’re going to do. So it’s really that simple. It’s confidence versus suspicion. Now, what I like to highlight Will is that it’s important to understand where that confidence is coming from. And I suggest it comes from two sources. It comes from having both character and competence. Character and competence both are vital. If you have one, but lack the other, you will not sustain the trust.
Understanding Trust and Confidence From a Sales Perspective · [03:00]
Will Barron:
I’m going to jump in here and I’m going to skip 15 questions ahead, and then I’ll bring it back to where I wanted to start the show. But you brought up something that’s fascinating to me here. Do we have two words other than there’ll be linguistic reasons why, or is this a separation between trust that… How to describe it? I can trust you Stephen that your book has sold crazy numbers. I can trust that you are going to come on the show and do a great job. And I’m putting that on you. Is confidence the opposite of that, of I can be confident and not particularly care what you think. And that adds trust to the conversation as well. Are they two separate entities of one is pushing trust. And then the other one is asserting trust and having control of it?
Stephen:
I think that there is some usefulness in that distinction. And there is some area of distinction where I think in English there’s an advantage and the confidence can refer to a self-confidence and assurety and self, versus an extension of trust. But what I’d like to really highlight here is that at the end of the day to have trust in a relationship, in a buyer seller relationship, so if I’m a salesperson, I need to both be trustworthy which I call credibility, that I have high credibility. And that includes a self trust, a self confidence that I’m credible, that it’s smart to trust me. So I need to be trustworthy, but I also need to be willing to extend the trust, to give trust. You got to give it to get it. And it’s interesting, because I’ve seen two trustworthy people working together both trustworthy, but no trust in the relationship because neither party is willing to extend it to the other.
“There’s a reciprocity of trust. And when you give it, people receive it and they return it. When you withhold it, they withhold it.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [05:34]
Stephen:
So to have trust you need to both be both trustworthy, but also you need to be willing to give the trust, to extend the trust. And that’s a key part of it. And so really there’s a lot of different ways we can think about trust and sometimes we can get wrapped around it and confused by it, but trust is confidence. It flows from having both character and competence. And a great way to think about it is to have trust in a relationship in a selling situation, I need to be both trustworthy, that is credible, but I also need to be willing to give and extend trust, to trust my customer, to trust my prospect. And I’ll tell you why that’s so vital Will, is because there’s a reciprocity of trust. And when you give it, people receive it and they return it. When you withhold it, they withhold it.
“The number one reason why salespeople don’t trust their sales leaders in many organisations is because, first and foremost, the leaders don’t trust their salespeople. And then the salespeople reciprocate that distrust right back at the management.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [05:50]
Stephen:
I worked with organisations all around the world. I find the number one reason why kind of and salespeople don’t trust their sales leaders in many organisations is because first and foremost, the leaders don’t trust their salespeople. And then the salespeople reciprocate that distrust right back at the management. And the same thing can happen with suppliers, distributors, partners, even with customers. If you don’t trust them, they tend to not trust you, but it works the other way too. When you do extend the trust, when you give it, people receive it, they return it. There is a reciprocity of trust, and it creates more. And so start with trust, focus on your trustworthiness, your credibility, but then also be willing to give and extend trust to others. And you’ll watch, it will come back to you. It’ll become a virtuous upward cycle. You’ll generate a reciprocity of trust. So that’s kind of a simple way of thinking about trust. Because we can get lost in a lot of different directions on this, but it’s confidence. It comes from having character and competence and to have it, to sustain it, to keep it, we need to be both trustworthy, but also we need to be willing to give it, to extend it to others.
The Power of Giving Trust First When Building Professional Relationships · [07:15]
Will Barron:
I really want to dive into competence in a second. I think this is something that the audience and myself can get a lot out of there’s a stereotype of the salesperson who says they’re going to do all these incredible things, but they only happen once you close the deal. And I want to dive into what we can… What doing first before that signature’s on the deal. What that does to trust, how that can make sales easier, how that can lubricate the sales process for a better way of once of a better way of describing it. But you brought something here which is interesting with giving trust first. We can use… Let’s use the salesperson and the sales manager dynamic here perhaps. Why is a practical way that a salesperson listening to the show now who… Because this is my experience of not having a great relationship with a sales manager. I didn’t trust them to not drop me in the shit if I screwed up, and they didn’t trust me to smash my target for numerous reasons, going back and forth. How could I have improved that relationship, Improved the communication by giving trust first?
Stephen:
Good question. And again, and there’s no simple, easy answer to it, because there’s different circumstances situations, and you want to make sure you’re always smart about giving trust, versus a blind trust where you just in extremely trust anyone and everyone. But what I’ve learned is this is that if you first look in the mirror, start with yourself, trusting yourself because it starts with self trust and then it emanates out from there. And then you give to your sales manager, a salesman, a salesperson that can be trusted. And in other words, it’s smart to trust you that they should trust you because of who you are, your character, your competence, your credibility. And then when you give it to another first. So even to your sales manager, which is saying, look, I start with trust. I trust you that you have my best interest in mind and that you’re seeking my advancement and my success as I focus on helping my clients succeed, helping my customers succeed. It’s just a better starting point until proven otherwise.
Stephen:
Now look, if it’s abused, if it’s taken advantage of, if the sales manager does not reciprocate back and instead just abuses it, then at some point it may not be smart to continue that way. But I find too often will people start kind of with the premise of distrust and they tend to becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and people respond back with distrust and they find themselves mired in a distrustful, suspicious relationship where neither party trust each other and they both feel justified in the process. It’s often very helpful to just kind of break that cycle and say, “Look, I’m going to ask you to take a risk.” I start with trust, but first I’m going to give you a person, a salesperson, a sales rep that you can trust, because I’m credible, but I start by trusting you until proven otherwise, that’s a better starting point. And I hope you do the same with me. You can actually make a behaviour specific request of your boss. I trust you. I ask you to trust me. You know what? Most people will respond to that. A few may not. And if they don’t, then okay. Then it’s maybe not smart to extend too much trust.
Stephen:
But I’ll tell you what? Start with this at a better starting point, you’ll be amazed at what it does. And there’s all kinds of research on this and data of game theory, negotiation theory if there’s a reciprocity to this. And if you lead with it tends to come back to you. And if you lead with distrust, that distrust also tends to come back with you. So be smart about it, but just lead… find a lead out in ways, in extending trust to those around you. Including your customers, especially your customers. And you’ll find it coming back to you.
The Neuroscience of Trust · [10:31]
Will Barron:
Human beings are wired one way or the other, because I could see it being a survival skill or instinct both ways, but are they wired to trust people that they don’t know? Or are they wired to immediately distrust and look for opportunities to trust people that they… If we’re dealing with a potential customer that we never spoke to before, are they looking to… Let me rephrase that differently. Are they looking to… Do they immediately trust us and then look for opportunities to turn that on its head? Or do they immediately distrust us and are looking for opportunities to build the trust?
Stephen:
Yes, there’s so many factors tied to that Will. In fact it’s very much how one’s raised, it’s cultural, it’s historical, it’s political in different contexts, but let me just start if I could initially. I think most of us are born with the desire to trust and be trusted. We as children, we tend to trust our parents. And then at some point though we learned that you can get burned. You can get disappointed, let down. And then we kind of through sad experience we say, no, it is too risky to trust other people. And we start to move towards distrust to protect ourselves, because none of us want to get burned, but I think we start with the propensity of trust. But then over time we tend to get it… Beaten out of us and we move the other direction.
Stephen:
However, let me just acknowledge that it’ll be different for different people and there’s different societies and cultures. There’s some high trust societies and others that are lower trust. And if I’m coming from those different societies and cultures, I might be influenced by that environment. For example, let’s take Denmark. Denmark is a high trust society and sociologists measure it. They ask a question, all around the world they ask, “Do you generally believe that other people can be trusted? Or can you never be too careful in dealing with people?” So kind of, can you trust people generally? Stranger? And they’re like, “Well in Denmark, 89% of the people start with the premise that other people can be trusted.” Now let me give you a contrast. In Chile, it’s 13%. So if I’m coming in out of Denmark, most people start with the premise. “I trust you until you give me a reason I shouldn’t.” In Chile is just the opposite. “I don’t trust you at all, until you give me a reason why I should.”
Stephen:
So, and it’s everything in between all around the world. Different countries, different situations. So it’s not a one size fits all, but my point is that be aware of your starting point. Do you start with the propensity to trust yourself? Or do you start with the propensity to distrust but you can help affect that. You can help influence that by your starting point. And if you lead out with trust, you can help to generate the reciprocity. And some people might be taken aback by it. They might be surprised by it. They might feel like they can take advantage of you, but in most situations instead they will want to reciprocate. And then you’ll see that reciprocity start to work with you and for you and together you can go to a higher level. So it’s a great question you ask and there’s no simple answer to it, but we can [inaudible 00:13:37].
Stephen:
It’d be too easy. Yeah, that’s right. But we can influence this no matter where we’re starting.
The Trust Dynamic in Both Business and Personal Relationships · [13:44]
Will Barron:
Okay. So we’ll go on to the influence. This is clearly the crux of the conversation in a second. I’m going to build up that with one more question. And that is, I… And tell me if I’m right or wrong with this? I’ll make a statement, you can pull it apart and make me look silly. I feel like… And this is almost an anecdote, what is an anecdote I guess. I feel like in personal relationships, like with my girlfriend, for example, trust is on this sliding scale. And of course we’re always looking to trust each other more, not necessarily rely on each other more, but have that trust that we’ve got each other’s back and that’s… It’s almost infinite to the scale, versus in business I seem to find when I’m selling, when I’m doing deals, when I’m growing the show, when I’m you inviting guests like yourself to come on the show, there’s almost like a click moment where you’ve built enough trust for the deal to happen.
Will Barron:
Is that how it works in business versus in relationships? Outside of business or I completely off here? In business is there an optimal point that we need to get to make the deal happen? And is there a Pareto’s law 80/20 principle of it takes way more hard work to get beyond that, perhaps it’s worth it over the long term, but is that what we should be aiming for this initial click? The deal can happen level of trust or is that almost a negative way of looking at it?
Stephen:
No, I actually think there’s some merit to that if you think about it as a trust account, a trust bank. Just like a financial bank account, there’s a balance of trust in the account. And if it’s just like a financial bank account. If I take too many withdrawals or too big of withdrawal, I could be overdrawn, right? And there’s insufficient funds. Same with the trust bank, the trust account, if I take too many withdrawals, too big of withdrawal, it could be overdrawn. There’s overdrawn, there’s insufficient trust in the account. And so in every relationship, there’s kind of a level of trust, a balance of trust, a trust account and we’re trying to build that up. And how do we do it? We do it through our behaviour and through our credibility, and we behave way into greater trust. That’s like making a deposit and you’re trying to get it higher and higher all the time, and you’re right.
“You not only want to make the sale. More importantly, you also want to build a relationship of trust, because when you do that, the quality of that sale has just gone up. Your ability to make another sale has just gone up.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [15:57]
Stephen:
At some point if you do a deal together, you make a sale, you not only want to make the sale. More importantly, you also want to build a relationship of trust, because when you do that, the quality of that sale has just gone up. Your ability to make another sale has just gone up. Your ability to get a referral from that customer has just gone up, because they trust you. And then when you create value for them and they see that there’s value in that sale, it was a mutually beneficial deal, it was win-win, then they trust you even more. And then it comes back and it becomes a virtuous upward spiral, and you keep going up and up and up.
Stephen:
And so I think it’s fine to look at it as there’s a trust account in a relationship. And you’re obviously wanting to constantly be increasing it, growing it, because that will help you navigate difficult times. And you’re not trying to drop on the reservoir trust by violating it, but you’re always just trying to build that trust so that when there is something that maybe goes wrong, people give you the benefit of doubt. And they… The trust bank is there to help in the transition period while they try to understand more, learn more and work together with you. So I think is a fair way of looking at it. The trust account, the level of trust in any given relationship. And you’re right, there is kind of Pareto 80/20, but that’s more around behaviours. There’s certain behaviours that will build trust faster and other behaviours that will destroy trust faster. And getting good at those behaviours, behaviours like talking straight, which is telling the truth and creating transparency which is telling the truth in a way that people can verify for themselves and clarifying expectations. And then practising accountability, being accountable. Listening first. Listening first is a powerful behaviour that builds trust. When people feel understood, they tend to then be more open to your influence, they trust you more.
Stephen:
Keeping commitments is maybe the biggest of them all. You make and keep commitments constantly. It’s a fast way to build trust is also a fast way to lose trust is to make him and to break him. And then I come back to that when I started with, which is extending trust. So ironically, one of the best ways to create trust is simply to give it. Why? Because of the reciprocity of trust principle it comes back to us. So you can get good at this, but I think my main point I would like to make on this is that there are real economics to trust. And you handed it at this earlier, Will. Maybe you were going here next with your question, that when there’s… when trust goes up in a relationship, with a prospect, with a customer, with a client on a team, with a sales manager and with a salesperson.
“In any situation when the trust goes up, you’ll find that everything will happen faster, and the cost comes down. Everything will cost you less. The converse is equally true. When the trust goes down in a relationship with a prospect, with a customer, on a team, with a manager, you’ll find that the speed will go down with it. Everything will take you longer to do, and the cost will go up. It will cost you a whole lot more.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [18:42]
Stephen:
In any situation when the trust goes up, you’ll find that the speed goes up with it. Everything will happen faster, and the cost comes down. Everything will cost you less. Now that is a dividend, a high trust dividend. And you know what? The converse is equally true. When the trust goes down in a relationship with a prospect, with a customer on a team, with a manager, when the trust goes down, you’ll find that the speed will go down with it. Everything will take you longer to do, and the cost will go up. It will cost you a whole lot more.
Stephen:
In fact, when there’s significant distrust, it can literally double the cost of doing business. That is a tax, a low trust tax. And Will, it’s that simple. That powerful, that predictable, and it’s playing out everywhere. So I will just ask our listeners, think of a relationship client where you have built a high trust relationship. What’s it like to work with them? How fast can you move when there’s trust, mutual trust. And when it comes up for the renewal of the contract and you’ve built trust, and you’ve created value the speed at which you can move the low cost. And just contrast that if you would to a relationship or for whatever reason, there’s low trust, or at least it’s not where you want it to be. And now it comes time for the renewal, but they don’t fully trust you. And maybe you don’t fully trust them. Now what’s that renewal process like? What’s that sales process like? How long does it take? It takes you longer, cost you much. It’s that simple, that easy, that powerful and that predictable, it’s spreading everywhere. So we got to get trust to work as a huge asset a huge advantage.
Stephen:
For any salesperson, any leader, any organisation, it’s a huge advantage. It is a multiplier. It’s an accelerator. It’s also an energizer of the relationship. It changes everything. You still have to do the other things, but if you start with trust, you get a multiplier on everything else you’re trying to do. Your ability to collaborate, partner, team, create, innovate, all goes up with trust. The speed at which you can move. It cost you less. It’s energising, it’s pleasant. It’s fun. You enjoy it. So these are… This is all part of the economics of trust. And it’s very real. It’s playing out everywhere and we all look… Well not I shouldn’t say we all, but many of us look right past it. We kind of assume this, take it for granted, but we don’t focus on it consciously, deliberately. This is so foundational, so fundamental, that we often ignore it. But I would say let’s not. Let’s become intentional about trust. Let’s… In sales, let’s compete on trust.
Stephen:
And you watch, if you have that ability to create trust, to inspire trust, and to start with trust and to create trust in the relationship and as then follow on with trading value, then it will affect your ability to do everything else. You’ll sell more. You’ll have better relationships. You’ll have… It’ll be more enduring. They’ll buy more. They’ll refer more business to you and they’ll stay with you longer. They’ll give you the benefit of doubt. All these things go up with trust. So I call it the great multiplayer and the great accelerator, not only to sales, but to really leadership and to life.
Will Barron:
Tell you what Stephen? I’m motivated. You’ve got… I need you to ring me every morning with a pitch like that and get me, get my lazy ass out of bed and hustling. I was nervous to say anything to interject, because you weren’t over. I appreciate that. And do you know what? I feel like the… Whether it’s correct or it’s incorrect, but the stereotypes and obviously it’s more transactional sales versus the complex sales that we cover on this show. But if more people listened to a… which was essentially a rant like that each morning, even if I just take that as a clip and that’s something that they can just listen to over and over and over, I don’t think the negative stereotype of salespeople would be the same as what it potentially is right now. If people realign their priorities and went out their way to put in the hard work now to build trust, to make sales easier in the 12 month, 24 month, five year period down the line. When you’ve got these relationships, where deals come to you and referrals come to you because people trust that you’ve both said you’re going to do something kind of to run through things that you’ve mentioned then, but you’ve kept your commitments. You’ve done what you said you were going to do. You’ve given first, all these kind of things.
The First Step to Making Trust a Part of Your Sales Identity · [23:07]
Will Barron:
To bring it back to ground level for a second here, let me pitch you this, Sam, the salesman he’s totally board, wants to increase the levels of trust, integrity. He wants to start from himself within, and then he wants to project this outwards. He looks himself in the mirror and he goes, “Oh, I wouldn’t really trust myself as far as I can feel myself. I’m not feeling good about this.” This has struck a nerve with him. He’s now getting excited that there’s change that moment where you have that light bulb shine on in your head. And he goes right, now is the time that I understand that my word and perhaps not trustworthy through multiple reasons, through cultural reasons, through upbringing, through not trusting other people. And so not being able to be trusted himself. Where’s the starting point of this? When Sam is looking at the mirror, he’s probably stood down in his boxes, not feeling great about himself. Where’s the starting point of all of this?
Stephen:
I love it, because the starting point is the looking in the mirror. That is the starting point versus looking out the window and putting the finger at everybody else. Saying they’re the problem, the prospect is the problems, the customers is the problems, my boss is the problem. It’s easy to look out the window at everybody else. But the starting point really is to look in the mirror and ask yourself this question, do I trust myself? And how credible am I? And so I would say as you’re asking yourself that question, you’re looking at both in terms of your character and your competence. And on the character I’m looking kind of in two dimensions there on the character side. My integrity and do I do what I say I’m going to do? Do I do the right thing? What’s my integrity. Am I honest? Am my truthfulness? But also I’m looking at my intent. What’s my intent. Am I trying to do… Am I just trying to make the sale to make money? Am I really trying to help my clients succeed? I’m trying to create value for those that I’m serving. Those that I’m trying to sell to, my focusing on that.
Stephen:
Look, I’m not against making money. I want to make money, but I’m thinking in terms of win, win, abundance, mutual benefit. My starting point is I start with saying, “I’d like to help you win.” And of course I’d like to win too, but my win comes through your win. I hope my client succeed. My intent is to help you succeed. And if that’s the intent that will really help. So I start there focusing on my character, my integrity, my intent. And then I can look-
If You Want to Become More Trustworthy, Start By Trusting Yourself · [25:35]
Will Barron:
Is this something that… Sorry to interrupt. I could feel you get onto the next point then, but is this something that we should measure, track or document? Is this something that we look in the mirror and say, “Do I trust myself? I give myself a three out of five, because I apply myself sometimes, but I don’t always follow through on what I’m on what I said I’d do.” And you look at how credible you are. Is this something that we can put on a scale, or is it more… Is less tangible than that?
Stephen:
Well, yes. To both, it is less tangible and yes, you can measure it, you can. At one level we all kind of have a sense of this, and you can really ask yourself, “Do I trust myself?” And do I give to my prospects and my clients a salesperson that they can trust? Is it smart to trust me? And you can kind of gauge yourself on that, but if you want, you can measure it. And we do measure it. We’ve got some basic tools. In my book, The Speed of Trust there’s tools on our website, speedoftrust.com you could look at. We actually have a 360 feedback instrument for a salesperson, or a leader or anyone of how trusted am I where they assess themselves around those four dimensions, the integrity and the intent that flows out of your character.
Stephen:
And then on the competence, I call it the capabilities, the results it flows from your competence. You can measure it there, you can put it on a scale and measure it, or you can kind of just get a intuitive sense of it. So yes, to either it could be both very deliberate, intentional, and measurable, or it could be kind of a directional thing, whatever works for you. But I think that… Let me add one more piece of what would I do. So if I assess myself and I say, “Gosh,” maybe I don’t feel so much self trust in myself. And maybe I’m not quite as honest or as open, as transparent as I want to be, need to be. Where do I start there? My simple answer to that is, I’ve looked in the mirror, I’ve looked at myself and if I find myself lacking somewhat, here’s the best way I know to increase personal self trust.
“The research shows that the number one way to increase trust with another person, with a client, with a prospect, with a manager, with a leader, is to make them a commitment and then to keep it. And then make another commitment and to keep it. And you repeat that process.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [27:45]
Stephen:
And it’s a parallel from the best way to increase trust with another person. The research shows the number one way to increase trust with another person, with a client, with a prospect, with a manager, with a leader, is to make them a commitment and then to keep it. And then make another commitment and to keep it. And you repeat that process. Make, keep, repeat, make, keep repeat. You do what you say you’re going to do. You say it, you do it. Make, keep, repeat. It becomes a virtuous upward cycle. You can build trust. You can build it exceptionally fast that way. Will, that’s also the fastest way to build trust with yourself. Learn to make, and keep commitments to yourself. And start with the little things. And it could be, I’m going to get up tomorrow at five and go exercise. And the alarm goes off at five and I get up and I keep that commitment, that little commitment to myself.
Stephen:
And because it’s very easy to kind of make all kinds of commitments to yourself that you don’t keep, or you might not even have any intention to keep, but you can lose that self trust. And so just in those little things, learn to make and keep commitments to yourself as a way of increasing your sense of clarity, your sense of integrity, your sense of power. The self trust will come from that. So that’s a kind of a, you ask the right question, which is look in the mirror first, assess yourself, learn to make and keep commitments to yourself, is a great way to start. And then you move out. So that’s the character side, the integrity, the intent. I use a metaphor of a tree. That’s like the integrity is the roots of the tree. The intent is the trunk of the tree. Then the competence side is the upper half of the tree, the branches and the fruits. So I divide competence into two key pieces, your capabilities and your results. So capabilities is like the branches of the tree that produce the fruits. And the results are the fruits of the tree. So capabilities, right the branches, that’s my talents, my skills, my expertise, my knowledge. I’m always learning. I’m always improving. I’m listening to your podcast. Well to get better, to understand how to close, how to create value, how to understand clients, how to listen first, how to identify needs, how to really focus on helping my clients succeed. I’m constantly getting better, improving. I’m relevant with my industry. I’m relevant with what’s going on in the marketplace and how I can add more value. I’m learning. See those are capabilities that keeps me relevant.
Stephen:
And then those branches of the tree produce the fruits. And the fruits is my results, my performance, my current performance, my past performance. Do I deliver? Have I created value for my customer? Do they see the value? Because on paper, I could have the first three. I could be honest. I could care about them. They might feel like I care about their interest. On paper, I have the right capabilities. I’m smart I all my stuff, but what if my track record is that I haven’t created value. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t create the value that I’ve told them it’s going to create. That lack of results would undermine the trust. I got to have the fruits as well to have that trust. And so I’m constantly focusing on delivering. If I’m… For my sales manager, I’m trying to earn his or her trust. I’m trying… They love people that perform, that deliver. And that they have more confidence. They want to give more leads to them when they deliver, when they come through and they get the fruits, the results.
The Four Cores of Credibility · [31:12]
Stephen:
And so that is also vital to building trust. So I call it the four core of credibility. Integrity, and intent that flow from your character, capabilities and results that flow from your competence. And so if I look in the mirror and ask, how credible am I? Is it smart to trust me as a salesperson? And I look in those four areas, my integrity, doing the right thing, my intent, seeking mutual benefit, my capability, staying relevant and my results, my performance, my track record. And coming through and creating value and saying, “How can I get better in those four areas?” That’s a great starting point at which then I can, that’s credibility, then when I add to that behaviour, which is how I do what I do. I talk straight. I tell the truth, I’m transparent. I clarify expectations. I deliver results. I get better constantly. I confront reality. I practise accountability. I listen first. I keep commitments and I extend trust. I just identified high leverage behaviours that help you build trust as a salesperson. And you do those things with your clients built on a foundation of credibility you’ll accelerate the building of trust. You’ll be like huge deposits into the trust account. The trust bank and their trust will go up. And then it becomes a virtuous upward cycle. So that’s the idea. You behave your way into greater trust. Just like you can behave your way out of trust. You can lose it through your behaviour. You can also win it, earn it, create it through your behaviour.
How to Communicate Your Trustworthiness to the People You Interact with · [32:52]
Will Barron:
Love it. And of course anyone who’s excited got a green like mind from ear to ear. Clearly the book dives into all of this in more detail and kind of the next step from this podcast. But final thing I want to wrap up on here, Stephen is, how much of this is we become better people, we have more integrity, we do it all, and then it’s observed by others and I’m sure some of this is gut feeling as well as a calculated, can we trust this individual? How much of it is just absorbed naturally? And then how much of this needs to be overtly communicated to a potential customer of even just the wording of how you go about doing things of I’m doing this, because… I going to say I care about you. But you could say I’m going to do X, Y, Z, because your outcomes are 1, 2, 3, and I want them to align. How much of this do we need to communicate with them? And how much of it do we need to, I guess just suck it up and just do the right thing?
Stephen:
I think that’s a great question Will, very insightful. Because the reality is if you kind of just naturally do these things, then you will be building relationships or trust. They will follow. It will happen, but it may not happen quite as fast. If you can be more deliberate about it, more intentional, explicit, you make the creation of trust and explicit objective in the relationship. You always have the two goals. You want to make the sale by creating value for the client and getting a mutually beneficial, win-win deal. You want to make the sale, but you also want to build a relationship of trust. That matters to you as much as the first, is to build that relationship with trust, because the quality of that sale goes up dramatically when they trust you.It’s possible I could have made the sale and not built the relationship of trust. And the quality of that sale has just gone down. And so I’m conscious about it. I’m intentional about it.
Stephen:
And again, some people can just naturally do this and it will follow. They’ll build trust. They’ll build relationships to trust and people will refer, but you know what? It will follow much faster. And with more people, if you’re intentional about it, if you’re deliberate about it, if you declare your intent, even to your prospect, your customer of, I want to build a relationship of trust and be a trusted partner to you, because if we can trust each other everything’s better and I declare my intent. And then a second thing is I then tell them what I’m going to do. I call that signalling your behaviour. Just like if you’re on the freeway driving and you want to change lanes, what do you do? Or what should you do? You should turn the blinker on, right? The signal. And you’re not doing that for yourself. You already know what you’re going to do. You’re doing it for others so that they might know what you’re going to do. They’re looking for it. That what they’re looking for it. They’re aware of it. They see the signal coming. They’re aware of it now. And then… So that’s the second thing. Signal your behaviour, that is tell them what you’re going to do having first declared your intent to build a relationship of trust. Because that’s better for everyone. Now I tell them what I’m going to do. I signal my behaviour.
Stephen:
And then the most important step is that third step. I now do what I said I was going to do. I deliver on it. But you know what? I’ll build trust faster having done the first two steps in advance. Having declared my intent to build trust in the relationship. Having told them what I’m going to do, because now they’re aware of it. They’re looking for it. Then when I deliver on it, I do what I say I’m going to do. They say, “Aha, just like Will said, ‘He said he was going to do it, he did.'” Just like Stephen said, just like Susan said, he did what he said he was going to do. She did what she said he was going to do. I see it. I recognise it. I value it. I credit them faster than had I not done that, but be aware, you’ll also lose trust faster if you do the first two steps and not the third. If you declare your intent, do you want to build trust? If you then tell them what you’re going to do and then you don’t do it, trust will go down faster. So risk and return go together. But you can accelerate the building of trust by doing those things. Being intentional, declaring your intent, signalling your behaviour and then delivering on it. You’ll build it faster. You’ll destroy it faster if you don’t deliver on it.
Stephen:
So you don’t want to mess around with this. It’s not a game. It is part of… It is an extension of your character, your competence. Who you are, who you’re about your credibility. This is now putting into action, putting into practise. And as you get… as you become really intentional about this, because part of how you sell, you’re always trying to get a mutually beneficial deal and build a relationship of trust. You watch, you’ll become part of your reputation, your brand, you’ll go in front of you. You’ll build trust faster. You’ll get referral business going left and right. You’ll build not only relationships or trust. You’ll build a reputation of trust and it becomes that virtuous upward spiral. You’ll get it working for you as a huge differentiator in the marketplace for you as a salesperson. For your team, for your organisation. So this is a huge asset. I love your question. Be deliberate about it. Be intentional about it. Now look, if you’re not and you still do the right things, it will happen, but it will happen less fast, and with less people and it may not be as deliberate. So you’re not trying to brag. You’re just trying to instead signal your behaviour. And then you deliver on what you said. And people will look for it. They’ll see it. They’ll credit. You’ll build trust faster. You’ll make more sales that way.
Stephen’s Advice to His Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [38:15]
Will Barron:
I love it. I feel like we’ve only scratched a service here Stephen. I’ve got questions in my mind as we go through this conversation of how we can use this our sales to build more deeper and loving relationships with our families. If this is different between building trust to a man and a woman. If you look at masculine, feminine energies and the communication between back and forth on that front. I’ve got load more questions. So I’ll have you back on in the future to dive into some of these in more detail, perhaps. But I’ve got one final question that I ask everyone that comes on the show. And that is, if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you’d give him to help him become better at selling?
Stephen:
My one piece of advice would be to see that the first job of sales is to create trust. And the second job is to create value. Because if you don’t do the first, you’ll have a hard time doing the second, because people tend to look upon value through the lens of whether they trust you or not. And when you start by building that trust, that relationship that you’re credible and you do what you said you’re going to do even on little things. In the sales process is where that really starts. And even sometimes in advance of that with your reputation, your brand, it gets out in front of you. Then you begin to then focus on the value creation as an extension of the building of the trust. It’s part of the results. It’s the fruits of the tree. You’re creating value for your customer because of your intent. Your intent is to help clients succeed and not to make the sale. Is to help my client succeed.
“The currency of sales is trust. And in fact, in a very real way, sales is trust monetized.” – Stephen M. R. Covey · [39:55]
Stephen:
And so the currency of sales is trust. And in fact, in a very real way, sales is trust monetized. And so I would just see it through that lens. The very first job of sales is to create trust. And the second job is to create value. And as I do that together, that becomes a virtuous upward cycle because the more trust I create it opens up to how they view the value. And the more value I create for them, the more they trust me. I’ve delivered those fruits on the tree. They trust me even more and that becomes this virtuous upward spiral, but it’s a great starting point to view sales through the lens of trust. To compete on trust more than on product and pricing and promotion and channel and all the different things. Those are all important. Start with trust. And you still have to do all the other things, but you get trust working for you is an extraordinary multiplier. It’s an accelerator, it’s an energizer for the relationship. It’s more fun and it tends to perpetuate itself. So that would be my advice to myself is to come back to some of the learnings of where I am now and say, start with trust. And in the first job of sales is to create trust.
Will Barron:
Well, I’ve got number 500 conversation to have with you now based around the idea and the concept of most sales trainers, quote unquote sales trainers would advise that you build rapport before you do anything else. But rapport is almost a poor substitute for trust of I would do business with someone that I thought was a bit the… form of that. I would do business only for… I thought it was a bit of a dick if I trusted them, but I wouldn’t necessarily do business with someone who I had rapport with if I didn’t trust them. And we’ve all probably got people in our lives, as I say that, and this comes to light with me, perhaps a few people that I need to spend less time with of I’ve got rapport with them. I’ll go on with them, there I laugh, but I don’t trust them. And I wouldn’t put my life in their hands. And then on the flip side, there are people… there’s people who I do trust, but perhaps they’re a bit boring and I don’t spend as much time with them as perhaps what I should, because that’s something that can be built over time. That rapport versus the trust is more integral to all this. So there’s a million questions coming next time you come on the show, Stephen.
Parting Thoughts · [42:15]
Will Barron:
But before that, tell us where we can find out more about The Speed of Trust? Where we can find out more about you? And for everyone who wants to learn more about this? And you mentioned some tools perhaps on the website as well. What is the next step for all of this if they want to learn more about it?
Stephen:
Yeah. Well, wonderful. I’d encourage you if you’re interested in this you can look at my book, it’s called The Speed of Trust and I really show how trust is an economic driver for a salesperson. How it’s the currency of leadership and of sales. And how it’s learnable. And I give kind of a methodology of how you can build trust on purpose, intentionally. Through your credibility, and through your behaviour. I go in great depth. Today, I kind of just skim the surface to give you a flavour for it. So The Speed of Trust is the book, you can also go to our website speedoftrust.com. And this is part of The Speed of Trust practise at Franklin Covey. We’re a global firm working all around the world and we have a whole sales performance practise that also blends in Speed of Trust as part of building trust in that process. And so that’s a great resource speedoftrust.com.
Stephen:
And then if you’re interested in following me on Twitter, I’d love to have you do so. I’m as I said @stephenmrcovey. That Stephen with a P-H. M-R-, my middle initials for Merrill Richards, Covey C-O-V-E-Y, but I’d love to stay connected. And this is a timely, relevant topic for our times because we’re operating increasingly in a low trust world. And so if you as a sales person can be… Can stand for high trust in a world of declining trust, what an advantage. And there’s some tools on the website and other places where you can go deeper, learn more if this is of interest to you.
Will Barron:
Love it. And I think just to echo what you said there, Stephen, I feel like right now where we are in B2B complex sales, you can… And this is just sad and it’s a sad state society, and it’s sad state of the sales industry, but by just doing what you said you do on time. That is a huge differentiator for numerous reasons. And I’m a millennial and we can perhaps hit on them in a future episode and thought processes and responsibilities and all this other stuff that kind of gets pulled in with it. But I genuinely think if you can go to a customer, you have to prove it to them multiple times that you can do what you said you’re going to do. They’re going to rely on you. Price becomes less important because they don’t want to be chasing other people for the low lowest price. They just want to deal with one individual or one company that could provide everything that they want within the specific needs the vertical, I think that’s a real differentiator. So I just wanted to echo that point, because I think that’s really important.
Stephen:
You’re exactly right. It’s that simple, and yet that profound. Because what it does is it creates trust that… And when you have that, you will do what you say you’re going to do. When you have that trust that’s making and keeping commitments. And when you have that trust, you’ll get to the point where people will say, “Look, I may not always like what I hear from them, but I know I can trust it.” And so when you tell them your solution costs more, but it’s worth it they believe you, because they trust you. And it’s not a manipulative trust, it is a authentic, natural trust that flows out of your character, your competence, your credibility, who you are, what you can do and how you behave with people. It’s natural, it’s abundant and becomes that virtuous cycle. So very exciting stuff. And appreciate what you’re doing Will in educating sales folks everywhere in this process, because we all got to get better. And I’m just saying, keep all the other things you’re doing. Start with trust as a multiplier and accelerator, it’ll help you on everything else that you’re doing. It’ll be a tremendous energizer for all those other things.
Will Barron:
Well, talking about energising. I want to thank you for the energy you brought in this interview and thank you for your time, Stephen. I want to thank you for joining us on the Salesman podcast.
Stephen:
Thanks so much Will. Great to be with you.
