Letting Customers Make Their Own Decisions, Makes Closing Easier?!

Jeffrey Lipsius is a sales expert who turns traditional sales training on it’s head.

Most sales trainers are telling you to take control of the conversation, to push it in a direction that makes you commissions. Jeffrey takes a different approach and in the internet age, when buyers have more control than ever, it makes total sense.

You'll learn:

Sponsored by:

Featured on this episode:

Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Jeffrey Lipsius
Sales Training Expert

Resources:

Transcript

Jeffrey Lipsius:

You don't have the conversation, of course, if you're not going to be able to offer the buyer what they want. So it's very important to understand this. Put yourself in the role of a customer.

 

Will Barron:

Hello, sales nation. I'm Will Barron, host of The Salesman podcast, and welcome to today's episode. Today's show, we have Jeffrey Lipsius, and we're turning sales on its head, so to speak. Jeffrey shares why you should let your customers, or your prospects that are going to become customers, make the buying decision themselves without any kind of forceful pushiness from you. It makes total sense in the episode, and it's super fascinating. And clearly, this is where sales is going, so make sure you're on board with it right now. You can find out more about Jeffrey over at sellingtothepoint.com. And with that all said, let's jump into today's show. Hey, Jeff. And welcome to The Salesman podcast.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Thank you, will. It's great to be here.

 

Are Sellers Taking Enough Time to Understand What Buyers Want? · [01:13] 

 

Will Barron:

I'm excited to have you on. We've had a bit of a chat before [inaudible 00:01:04]. There's a couple of quite deep topics that we could go into and some rabbit holes that we could dive into as well, so I know the show is going to be a good one. But to start, we all know the headlines that buyers are doing more research on their own. They're doing more of the discovery phase. They're catching up with us later in the buying process. So let's talk less about what the buyers are doing and perhaps more about what they want, because it's seemingly a question that sales people, myself included … There's perhaps [inaudible 00:01:35] arrogance in here in that we think we know what we're doing. We all think that we're great sales people and we've got great skills. But are we taking enough time here in 2016 when the landscape is changing rapidly to really think about not what we can do, but perhaps what the buyer wants?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Yes. Well, you don't have the conversation, of course, if you're not going to be able to offer the buyer what they want. So it's very important to understand this. Put yourself in the role of a customer. Why would you want to talk to a salesperson? Well, you would gladly talk to a salesperson if you think that salesperson is going to help you make a better decision about buying the product. So the salesperson just needs to be on the same page and understand this is why the customer has invited you to this conversation, to be able to help them make a better decision. Unfortunately, a lot of salespeople don't have that goal. And when you have a different goal, then you're not working as a team.

 

“The role of salespeople is changing. Customers can get all the product information they want now just on the internet. But what they don't have is clarity because now, customers have too many choices. And customers are very distracted with emails and advertisements and instant messaging and all the different social media that has their attention going all over the place. If salespeople can provide a level of clarity to get customers clear about what they really need, what they really want, maybe help what their goals are, then the quality of the customer's buying decision is going to be elevated.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [03:14] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

If the salesperson is committed to helping the quality of the customer's decision process, which I call decision coaching, if the salesperson's willing to be the customer's decision coach, then you're on the same team and working together towards a common goal. I believe the lack of this is the main reason why the selling profession has this negative stigma attached to it. Sales people aren't always on the same team with their customers. And this is especially important today because the role of salespeople is changing. Customers can get all the product information they want now just on the internet, and purchasing information too. But what they don't have is clarity because now, customers have too many choices. And customers, you might notice are very distracted with emails and advertisements and instant messaging and all the different social media that has their attention going all over the place. And so if sales people can provide a level of clarity to get customers clear about what they really need, what they really want, maybe help what their goals are, then the quality of the customer's buying decision is going to be elevated.

 

Most Salespeople Are Only Focused on Making the Sale, and That's a Problem · [04:07] 

 

Will Barron:

Let me just jump in here a second because there's going to be some people listening to this now that immediately … Because I'm on board with everything that you're saying, for the record. But there's going to be some people listening to this now in their cars, driving to a sales meeting, who are going, “Well, I'm not always, to use your language, on the same page or have the same goals or on the same team as the prospect of the customer, because I get a commission when I close them, when I get the deal, as opposed to when I help them make the best decision.” Is this an inherent problem in sales in the way we're kind of motivated by money and commissions, or can that be kind of relegated to the side? And can we help and coach people and still have the best of both worlds, in that still be kind of commissioned and do well financially, as well as help them make the right decision for themselves?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

That's a good point, Will. And I think every salesperson should answer that question for themselves, whether they want to play the role of a decision coach, or if they want to just follow the sales training that they learned back [inaudible 00:05:16] the home office. But what I'm doing today in this conversation with you is giving salespeople the choice, because today I'm going to focus on decision coaching and how a salesperson could choose to do that if they feel it's going to be the most appropriate for that particular customer interaction. And then salespeople can experiment and see which one actually results in more commission. Maybe you'll find yourself as a salesperson doing more decision coaching than you thought, when you give it a try. I'm just here to allow salespeople to hear about it so they can give it a try.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

So to answer your question, in every sale, there's really two conversations, not just one. And unfortunately, traditional sales training only focuses on one of the two. The first conversation is the one you're having with the customer. We'll call this the selling conversation. And sales training is going to focus on how to have a high level conversation with the customer. That's great. But at the same time, there's a second conversation going on, which is the internal buying conversation between your customer's ears.

 

“You can control the conversation you're having with the customer, and you can take credit for the conversation you're having with the customer. However, the conversation between the customer's ears, you can't control that. You're not even privy to it. We don't know the gears turning in the head of the customer, but that doesn't mean it's not important. And that doesn't mean we can't influence it. We can elevate it if we just know some of the principles on how to work with this internal conversation in spite of the fact that you can't hear it. One analogy I say is a farmer doesn't need to know photosynthesis in order to grow a good crop. He just needs water and light, fertiliser, and the process gets going.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [06:55] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Which of the two is more important? I would argue that it's this internal buying conversation that determines the salesperson's commission more than the conversation between the salesperson and the customer. I believe traditional sales training is focused on this because you can control the conversation you're having with the customer, and you can take credit for the conversation you're having with the customer. The second conversation between the customer's ears, you can't control that. You're not even privy to it. We don't know the gears turning in the head of the customer, but that doesn't mean it's not important. And that doesn't mean we can't influence it and elevate it if we just know some of the principles, which is discussed in my book, how to decision coach, how to work with this internal conversation in spite of the fact that you can't hear it. One analogy I say is a farmer doesn't need to know photosynthesis in order to grow a good crop. He just needs water and light, fertiliser, and the process gets going.

 

How to Use the Selling Conversation to Influence the Buying Conversation · [07:55]

 

Will Barron:

Is the selling conversation then almost redundant? Obviously, people buy on their emotions and their logical thoughts on what happens perhaps after the conversation itself. So is it totally worthless and useless, or is the selling conversation what we use to then influence the buying conversation?

 

 “You could say the best selling points in the world. But if the customer is not receptive to hearing them, you're not going to move forward.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [08:27] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

The latter. The selling conversation is what we use to influence the buying conversation. It's just that the buying conversation, I think, should take the lead because you could say the best selling points in the world. If the customer is not receptive to hearing them, you're not going to move forward.

 

Will Barron:

And what do you mean by that, Jeff? Just so I've got clarity on this as well. Let me give you an example, perhaps. If they're not receptive, could this be the scenario when the salesperson comes in really heavy handed and they're trying to essentially manipulate the person, so the person gets their guards up? Is that what you mean by not being receptive to it?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

That's possible, but you're talking about a scenario where the salesperson was the cause of the scenario. And what I'm trying to do is turn the salesperson's thinking around. Let's look at the customer as being the scenario. It's not that the salesperson said anything wrong or had a bad performance. It's just that the salesperson's selling points weren't resonating with the customer's priorities, with their values, with their goals. So in spite of the fact that the salesperson is saying what they feel may be all the right things, it's not resonating with the buyer. The buyer has a different set of priorities that the salesperson really doesn't know until you begin the conversation with the buyer.

 

“Salespeople need to be learners more than teachers. Salespeople need to learn what the customer's priorities are, what their goals are, what their concerns are, and then respond with the selling conversation in order to integrate what they have to say with the customer's beliefs and values.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [09:54] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Salespeople need to be learners more than teachers. Salespeople need to learn what the customer's priorities are, what their goals are, what their concerns are, and then respond with the selling conversation in order to integrate what they have to say with the customer's beliefs and values. Then you really have a high quality decision.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

One of the advantages of this, Will, is that sales people really rely on customers to take a lot of independent initiative when the salesperson is gone. You want the customer to use the product, reorder the product, tell competitors you're happy with your product. This is going to have to take place after the salesperson leaves. And if the salesperson was the main reason the customer bought the product, the salesperson was dynamic, the salesperson had a lot of influence, the salesperson leaves, and then the enthusiasm goes with it. Field reps, sometimes they have to visit customers every week because the enthusiasm goes away.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

What I'm saying though, is there have been times in my life where somebody said something to me that was so influential, they left, but it stuck with me the rest of my life. And that was because they said something, the timing was just right. I don't know if they told me, if they knew the timing was right, or they just had something profound to say. But it stuck with me. And this is a higher quality decision.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

I'll give you an example. Some of my clients are in the multi-level network marketing business, and they're selling vitamins. But you really don't make the money selling the vitamins as much as you make the money from the customers turning around and selling vitamins to all their friends. Well, that requires a higher level decision quality to not just buy, but then to have the customer turn around and sell to all their friends when the salesperson is not there. And this is a perfect example of selling to the point, where you're so in touch with your customer's decision process that you're able to really zero in on what's going to be really receptive to their belief and value system and have the decision to buy really go a lot deeper.

 

How Salespeople Can Help Their Buyers Make Better Buying Decisions · [12:41] 

 

Will Barron:

So Jeff, I want to get into this on a real practical level, so anyone driving to a sales meeting right now can perhaps try some of this and experiment with it as you alluded to at the beginning of the show. But just before we get into how we can use this, kind of step by step, in the meeting that we're going to in 20 minutes time, do our buyers and the people we're speaking to, do they need to know, understand, have read five Tony Robbins books to uncover their priorities, values, and goals? Do they need to understand all that for them to tell us about it, or can we uncover it ourselves and then obviously, align our product and services with that without them having to do all that legwork at the front of it?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

That's a really good question. Salespeople could use some coaching skills. When it comes to coaching, you have somebody who's trying to perform. And in this case, it's make the best decision. Decision making is a performance activity, just like acting or sports. And salespeople, if they understand a little bit about coaching, can help customers do this activity better.

 

“The customer needs internal confidence, internal choice, and internal clarity, my three Cs. If customers have sufficient levels of these three things, they will make the best decision. The customer's decision performance is more important than the salesperson's selling performance, because at the end of the day, it's the customer's decision performance that determines if the salesperson gets commission or not, not the salesperson's selling performance.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [14:06] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

So let me talk about this a little bit. It requires three things on the part of the customer. I made it simple, just three things. The customer needs internal confidence, internal choice, and internal clarity, my three Cs. If customers have sufficient levels of these three things, they will make the best decision. The customer's decision performance is more important than the salesperson's selling performance, because at the end of the day, it's the customer's decision performance that determines if the salesperson gets commission or not, not the salesperson's selling performance.

 

“The goal of selling is not selling at all. The goal of selling is buying. If I'm a salesperson and I'm on my way to an appointment, I’ve got my pitch down, I've got my presentation materials ready, I’ve prepared how I'm going to handle objections, when I get to the customer and the customer says, “Oh, I read your literature. I'm going to buy the product. Where do I sign?” Are you going to do your pitch? Of course not, because the customer bought. You achieved your goal. Why would you sell? So the goal of selling is buying.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [14:39] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Let me just make this clear. The goal of selling is not selling at all. The goal of selling is buying. If I'm a salesperson and I'm on my way to an appointment, I got my pitch down, I've got my presentation materials ready and my home office training, how I'm going to handle objections, when I get to the customer and the customer says, “Oh, I read your literature. I'm going to buy the product. Where do I sign?” Are you going to do your pitch? Of course not, because the customer bought. You achieved your goal. The customer bought. Why would you sell? So the goal of selling is buying.

 

“If the customer lacks self-confidence, they're going to make an inappropriately conservative decision, and decision quality suffers. So you as a salesperson want to prioritise making sure the customer feels good about their ability to decide.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [15:46] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

I mentioned the three Cs, internal confidence, internal clarity, internal choice. Let's look at internal confidence. When I talk about confidence to a salesperson, right away, you're thinking, oh, I have to earn the customer's confidence. And what I'm saying, when it comes to decision performance and coaching a customer's decision performance, what about the customer's self-confidence in their ability as a decision maker? Because if the customer lacks self-confidence, they're going to make an inappropriately conservative decision, and decision quality suffers. So you as a salesperson want to prioritise making sure the customer feels good about their ability to decide.

 

Learn the Buyer’s Most Pressing Needs and Then Help Them Make Better Buying Decisions · [16:05] 

 

Will Barron:

And how do we do that on a real practical level? Everything you're saying in theory makes total sense, and I'm really loving it. But there seems to be a leap here from understanding that the customer needs to have internal confidence, so again, they can perhaps make a bolder decision. They can sign up for longer. They can do whatever. There are plenty ways to go about it, which is beneficial for the salesperson. How do you get that leap from understanding this to if the sales conversation isn't there to push them one way or the other? How do you get them to coach themselves into agreeing with that kind of statement?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, this is where salespeople really need to be the learners rather than the teachers. You need to learn this customer's burden of proof, so they feel good about the decision they're making. And this could be any number of things. Some customers are more sceptical than others, so you're going to need a higher level of proof. And a salesperson just can't know this until you're actually in the conversation. But a customer would really appreciate salespeople pointing out ways that the customer can determine if this is going to be the best decision for them. And the salesperson has this knowledge from dealing with customers in this category buying their product and all the experience they've had, could share that with the customer, and the customer could benefit from the salesperson's experience. This is why it's a team.

 

Questions To Ask When Trying to Uncover Things That Make Your Buyers Feel Good About Their Buying Decisions · [17:45] 

 

Will Barron:

What kind of question could we ask to uncover … And I might be getting too practical or analytical of all this. Tell me if I am. But what kind of question would we ask to uncover the burden of truth that the prospect needs to kind of get overcome so that they're happy with themselves? Or are we going on more of a gut feeling with some of this perhaps?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, sometimes it has to be a gut feeling. Nobody has a crystal ball. But a salesperson could ask a customer, “Well, how did you base your decision last time? And how did that decision work out?” Or do you have reports you could check? Or let's look at the capacity of what your plant's doing now and the growth patterns and see if we can interpolate if you're going to need something that has greater capacity over the next five years, different things that we could just put the customer in touch with the information they need to feel better about their decision.

 

Will Barron:

Awesome. So to use that word burden again, we've taken the burden away from them having to believe us. And we are just providing them with the facts that they need. Is that right?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

That's absolutely right, because we're the coach. We're on the sidelines. Customer is making the decision. We're giving them the tools they need to make the best decision about buying our product.

 

Clarity From a Sales Conversation Standpoint · [19:09] 

 

Will Barron:

Awesome. Okay. Tell us a little bit more from the same context with clarity. What questions can we ask or what road can we go down to find out … Well, let me to take a step back. What does clarity mean in the conversation? Is this how well they understand us, the product, the offering? Or is it deeper than that?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, it's actually the opposite. But I'm glad you mentioned this, Will, because most salespeople, when they think about clarity, they're thinking about the selling points, the features of the product. But I'm saying, turn it around. If you're going to be a coach, you have to turn it around and think about the buying process, which isn't what the product does, but rather how what the product does will benefit the customer. So the customer needs to be clear about their goals. They need to be clear about their wants and clear about their needs. So once a customer becomes internally clear with their goals and objectives, they can easily decide if those product features are going to satisfy them. But if a customer is not clear on their goals … Have you ever tried to sell to a customer who doesn't really know what they want? It's impossible. They don't have an attention span. They really seem disinterested.

 

How to Sell to a Customer Who Doesn't Know What They Want · [20:37] 

 

Will Barron:

And whose fault or problem is this? If we come across a customer like that, should we be coaching them to work out what their wants and needs are? Or have we just done a poor job in prospecting, and we're in front of the wrong person?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, I would say that's one of the reasons the customer might be willing to talk to you is you're going to help them get a little more clear on what their goals might be. I talked to a financial planner, and he asked me, “Well, how much money do you want after retirement?” And I didn't really know it first. And he had to first, run me through the process of, “Well, you're going to need to pay for this. You're going to need to pay for that.” And he got me clear about how much money I should look for after retirement, and then he began talking to me about the products to do that. So internal clarity is extremely important in order for customers to make a good decision about your product.

 

The Salesperson’s Role is Helping the Buyer Avoid Making Buying Mistakes · [21:47] 

 

Will Barron:

I'm really enjoying this. I love episodes like this when it seems counterintuitive until you get into it, and then it makes total sense. And where I want to end on this before I ask a couple of questions that I ask everyone that comes on the show, Jeff, is what happens when you sit down with a potential customer, you've built rapport, you've done all the obvious, kind of lower level stuff, and you're getting into these kind of conversations, and the customer, they are super certain, they have total clarity in what they want and what they need. But you, as the expert in the industry, you've done this deal, this product, you've set this service up many times. You know what they have clarity about is wrong. Should we be jumping in and telling them this? Or again, is there perhaps a softer and a more … I'm going to make up a word here, but coachy way to take them from what they've got clarity on to what really they should be looking at?

 

“Salespeople ultimately are not responsible for customers making a bad decision. We could say what we think and give guiding advice, but at the end of the day, it's not our fault.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [23:32] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, again, the salesperson is really on the sidelines, and we can call the plays. We can tell the customer what our recommendation would be. But at the end of the day, it's really the customer's decision. And I think we could all look back at decisions we've made that weren't the best. However, perhaps we learned from that mistake and recall somebody saying, “Maybe you want to reconsider,” but we didn't take their advice at the time and made a mistake and had to learn the hard way through direct experience that we need to make different decisions next time. So there's always some learning to take place. Part of decision making, part of performing is that we're going to make mistakes sometimes. And the salespeople ultimately are not responsible for customers making a bad decision. We could say what we think and give guiding advice. But at the end of the day, you could go out to the street and look downtown at a lot of people who haven't made the best decisions in their lives. It's not our fault. Hopefully they can turn things around and start looking at things with a different perspective based on experience from the mistakes they've made in the past.

 

You Are Not Responsible For a Buyer’s Wrong Decisions · [24:11] 

 

Will Barron:

So is it a better position to be in that they've made the wrong decision, but you tried your best and they know that you were there for them, they know that you suggested these other things, versus trying to force them to go your direction, which you know is right?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, I don't think you can force that. Did you ever see this TV show, Intervention?

 

Will Barron:

No.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

There's a TV show, Intervention, where family and friends actually corner somebody. They're an addict or they're blowing it in their life somehow. And they have what's called an intervention, where they trap the person in the situation and just bark all these things, like you're blowing your life and you're not doing the right things, and you have to change. Usually, they just bolt out the door and never talk to these people again.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

What's interesting, I saw the show, and later the family members considered it to be a success because they said they got together. They worked as a team, and they said all the right things that he needed to hear. What I saw on the show is that the guy bolted, and he's never talking to them again. And so I don't consider it to be a success at all, but people have to come to their own conclusions. Decision making is an internal process.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

And one of the other things, to answer a previous question, is that salespeople need to ask lots of questions because questions are the salesperson's window into this internal decision making process. So the more you're asking questions, the more you're finding out about the nature of the gears turning inside your customer's head while they're making decisions. And you're better able to respond in a way that the customer would be receptive to hearing about if you're asking questions. And question asking is another big skill of coaching.

 

Will Barron:

Definitely. Well, I think we'll have you back on in the near future to dive into perhaps the question side of things. We could do a full hour show just getting really practical, and perhaps you could give us some examples and going through them as well. I think that would be valuable because it's one thing to understand a lot of this process, I think. But then it's another thing for that to be your default to commit to and to go through with each conversation, when a lot of us have probably had five, 10, 20 years of trying to bust our customers around and convince them that our way is the right way, which is again, counterintuitive, perhaps the wrong way to go about it. And with that, Jeff, I've got a couple of questions that I ask everyone that comes on the show. First one.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

One more thing.

 

Will Barron:

Yeah.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

One more thing is that I have a lot of examples in my book, practical examples that you're talking about.

 

Will Barron:

Good. We'll come onto the book at the end of the show. I've got a couple of questions I dive through with every guest. First one. What is one book other than your own, which we'll come onto in a minute, that you'd recommend The Salesman podcast audience?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Well, a really good selling book is Questions Keep You Connected by Deb Calvert. I love it because it's all about questions. It lists all kinds of great questions to ask customers. She also understands the value of asking good questions. My all time favourite book is The Inner Game of Tennis, which was the original impetus for me actually coming up with my whole Selling To the Point sales approach that everyone's hearing now. So I recommend reading The Inner Game of Tennis. It's transformed a lot of people when it comes to performance coaching.

 

Will Barron:

Nice. We'll link to both of them in the show notes over at salesman.red. Next one. Jeff, who is the world's greatest salesperson?

 

“The world's greatest salesperson is your customer because your customer really should be selling themselves. When you have a customer sell themself, you've just had the greatest salesperson because you never need to be around to sell them again.” – Jeffrey Lipsius · [27:47] 

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

The world's greatest salesperson, I would say is your customer because your customer really should be selling themselves. When you have a customer sell yourself, you've just had the greatest salesperson because you never need to be around to sell them again.

 

Will Barron:

Nice. That's a new one. Usually we get Barack Obama or Steve Jobs. I really appreciate that. That's really a new angle, and I think that wraps up and sums up part of the show here, Jeff, in your approach to things, which is awesome. Next one. What does the first 60 minutes of your day look like?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

The first 60 minutes of my day, I meditate every day. 42 years, minimum of 60 minutes, I meditate because there's nothing more important than starting the day with a good perspective. What I want to do is be able to respond to the day the best way, and I do this by being as observant as I possibly can. And meditation quiets all the internal distractions so that I could really see what's in front of me, giving me a chance to respond and learn as I go through the day. There's a saying I like. Who learns more, between a conversation with a wise man and a fool, who learns more? And the answer is the wise man, because he can even learn something talking to a fool. The fool is a fool because he could be talking to the wisest man and still not learn anything from it.

 

Jeff’s Advice to His Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [29:37]

 

Will Barron:

Nice. You had me stumped then. I didn't know which way you were going to go with that, so I appreciate that. And Jeff, I've got one final question that I ask everyone that comes on the show. And that is, if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you'd give him to help him become better at sales?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Pay attention to the customer. When I am at a loss for words, that's a good thing because then I shut up, and the customer can start talking, and I can start learning. There was a lot of time when I was a young salesperson when I thought I knew better than the customer. And what typically happened, even if I sold the product, the customer didn't have as much a connection to the product as I thought. And then I would have to resell it, and I was wondering why they weren't using the product. And now I see how customers really need to drive the selling conversation, and that's the real skill is allowing customers to do that and still having a presentation that could be modified for each individual customer.

 

Parting Thoughts · [31:05] 

 

Will Barron:

Definitely. I've been there, Jeff, in my medical device days of driving around weekly, popping in to people just to keep my face and the company's brand in their mind. Some customers got it and were lifelong fans of the brands I've worked for, and others were flipping and flopping and just wanted to go on price. And I guess if you can get them on this deep level, if you can coach them into loving you and your brand and your service, price becomes less of an issue in all this. And with that, Jeff, you've mentioned the book. Tell us what it's called, what it's about, and where we can find it.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

The book's called Selling To the Point. It's the first selling book that describes a new method of selling in the form of a fiction story. So the principles that I talked about today on your show with examples, all come out in dialogues between customers and salespeople and between the characters. A principal would emerge, and then I'd bring it out. And it's got romance. He uses the technique also for dating. It really gets into the guy's personal life, and the sales trainer, he's trying to save his job. And then he's coaching his daughter's softball team, but he likes somebody on the team, one of the coaches. And it's a whole novel. But through it, you learn this Selling To the Point approach with lots of examples that you're talking about.

 

Will Barron:

Nice. And I don't know if this was the point of it, but I guess by telling through stories like that, it probably sticks in your brain a lot more than a more bland sales textbook approach of do X, Y, Z because of course, that's not how we're wired to learn, is it?

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Yes. Well, what I'm saying in my book and what I've been saying on the show is salespeople learn during the course of conversation. So I'm walking my talk by writing a book that salespeople can learn by just witnessing the conversation going on between salespeople and customers. And that's where the actual learning and the actual principles take place is during the course of dialogue, which is the main learning tool of salespeople is dialogue.

 

Will Barron:

For sure. And we'll link to the book and everything else that we've talked about today over in the show notes over at salesman.red. And with that, Jeff, I want to thank you for your insights. Again, we'll have you back on to dive into this further. We could perhaps, if you are up for it, have you on with Deb Calvert. She's been on the show a bunch of times. She's always happy to come on. We could have you both on, and we could dive into the questioning and kind of wrap up a really good piece of content with this. So perhaps we'll discuss about that in a minute when we wrap up recording. But with that, Jeff, again, thank you for your insights. I want to thank you for your time, and I want to thank you for joining us on The Salesman podcast.

 

Jeffrey Lipsius:

Thank you, Will. It's been a pleasure.

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