David Fisher is a sales and networking expert who shows professionals how to harness the power of relationships to uncover new opportunities and make existing business easier. In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, David shares what “critical thinking” is and how it can be a true differentiator between you and your competition.
Featured on this episode:
Resources:
- DavidJPFisher.com
- BOOK: Hyper-Connected Selling: Winning More Business by Leveraging Digital Influence and Creating Human Connection
- David on Linkedin
- Book: Networking in the 21st Century…For Sales Professionals: Why Your Network Sucks and What to Do About It
Transcript
Will Barron:
Coming up on today’s episode of the salesman podcast.
David J.P. Fisher:
The ability to take in information and do something with that. When we think about critical thinking, it’s usually there’s a problem, we need to solve it. And critical thinking is the skill we use to decipher all that information and then do something useful with it.
Will Barron:
Hello Sales Nation, I’m Will Barron host of The Salesman Podcast. The world’s most listened to B2B sales show. If haven’t already, make sure to click subscribe. And with that, let’s meet today’s guest.
David J.P. Fisher:
Hi, I’m David J.P. Fisher. Everybody just calls me D. Fish. I am a speaker, author and coach. I’ve written eight books, including the bestselling Networking In The 21st Century: Why Your Network Sucks And What To Do About It, and Hyper Connected Selling. If you want to find me, I’m online, davidjpfisher.com
What is Critical Thinking? · [01:12]
Will Barron:
On this episode of the show with the legend that is David, we’re looking at the structure, the process, the methodologies of using critical thinking to not just give better outcomes and more value to our potential customers, but to demonstrate the value as well, to demonstrate process that we’re going through to do all this work for them. So they know that we’re working hard, and we can use it to differentiate ourselves from the competition. So with that, let’s jump into the conversation. Before we get into the practicalities, now we can practise and learn it, what does critical thinking actually mean?
“The ability to take in information, and do something with that. When we think about critical thinking, it’s usually there’s a problem, we need to solve it. And critical thinking is the skill we use to decipher all that information and then do something useful with it.” – David J.P. Fisher · [01:51]
David J.P. Fisher:
It’s a great question. We could come up with so many different definitions of it. But I think a very simple working definition, is it’s the ability to look at some information, some data, and really parse through it, figure out what’s really going on. Then based on your diagnosis, make a recommendation about a possible path forward. So just the ability to take in information, and do something with that. When we think about critical thinking, it’s usually there’s a problem, we need to solve it. And critical thinking is the skill we use to do cypher all that information and then do something useful with it.
Is there a Difference Between Critical Thinking and Just Pure Common Sense? · [02:10]
Will Barron:
Is there a difference? I don’t know, this might be too nuanced to break down, but is there a difference between someone who is incredible at critical thinking and someone who has just good common sense?
David J.P. Fisher:
Wow, I think you’re right, it’s a little nuanced for, but I think that when we look at common sense, it is almost this intuitive, critical thinking. A lot of what we think about it as critical thinking, is the ability to look to the future and figure out possible consequences and decide, “Well, maybe that’s a consequence I do want, or one that I don’t want.” The people we think who have common sense are good at just intuitively going, “Based on all of the information I have, I don’t think I should tell my significant other that I don’t like her haircut.” It’s something like that. Critical thinking is maybe the intentional or deliberate use of those skills when you’re faced with a situation or a scenario.
Will Barron:
So I think I’m pretty good on the common sense front, especially with business stuff, for whatever reason. My dad has run small businesses in the past, so probably some of this filters down and conversations over over tea. I was just chatting with you before we clicked record, of I’m taking the accounting side of the business more seriously now, because it’s the first time in four years that there’s been any revenue to actually do any accounting on.
David J.P. Fisher:
It’s a big thing.
Critical Thinking Processes and Its Difference to Following Your Gut · [03:55]
Will Barron:
Yeah, so common sense comes somewhat, I wouldn’t say naturally, like it’s a God-given talent, but it’s a gut feeling. I know when something sounds, looks stupid, that isn’t going to work, and when something peaks my interest and I go, “Okay, I could investigate this further.” So if that’s your gut feeling and we can leave common sense to one side for the rest of the conversation. If common sense is your gut feeling, is there a process to critical thinking is there, “Here’s a problem, here’s the potential solution.” If there is a process, how do we go about looking into the problem and uncovering what is actually useful in a potential fix or scenario to go about getting to our outcome?
“When we become experts in an area, we are actually able to make decisions that are good, without actually having to consciously go through a process.” – David J.P. Fisher · [04:31]
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think you actually have keyed in on something there with the idea of a gut feeling. Sometimes our gut feelings are just the emotional resonance that we can put onto a situation. But I think for a lot of us, when we become expert in an area, we are actually able to make decisions that are good, without actually having to consciously go through a process. So like you said, you’re great at business. I’ve seen this happen a lot of times where somebody is a great business person. Again, they’ve got a great gut, great intuitive sense for business, but other parts of their life are a mess, and they have no common sense whatsoever. It’s just that they don’t have that process. I think when we look at critical thinking, yes, there is absolutely some processes that we can put in place. Some skills we can work on.
David J.P. Fisher:
I think the first, is understanding that we need to have as much information as possible, but also we need to not wait to have all of the information. So you’ll see often people who don’t want to make a plan, or don’t want to make that first step until they know everything, and they’re never going to know everything. So they get stymied and they get stuck. So I think that when you look at the critical thinking path, it is really about being deliberate, going, “Okay, do I have enough information? Then based on that information, do I have previous scenarios, previous experience in this situation that I can apply?” I think there’s something to be said then for, and we’ve talked about this before, but empathy and relationships, “How does that information actually play out in this scenario? I’m working on?” Meaning yes, the VP of HR, the VP of marketing, the VP that I’m trying to sell to might be telling me X, Y, and Z.
David J.P. Fisher:
But I actually know based on conversations with that person, and also maybe some other conversations, there’s something else going on. So understanding that. And then it’s what I would say is the creativity, and maybe there’s the wild card, which is maybe you have some different experiences. You’ve shared the story before about walking into a surgeon’s surgery, I guess, and talking about boats, because that’s what the surgeon was really into. That’s how you built that rapport. So yeah, there’s this whole process. Then there’s the diagnosis and going, “Hey, I think we should do this.” Then there’s getting the customer or potential customer to agree to it. So this is, there’s some complexity here. This is not just A, B and C, but that I think when you put some deliberate intention on that process, you can definitely see better results.
Why is Critical Thinking Important? · [07:10]
Will Barron:
So I want to get into the deliberate intention in a second, but why do we want to be able to do this? Why is critical thinking a differentiator for us, versus someone who perhaps has common sense, can go in, maybe has a little bit of industry experience and then go, “Oh, I guess we should be doing X, Y, Z.” How can we deliberately do this? And potentially, or if we do deliberate do this, does it add more value to the end user as a result?
David J.P. Fisher:
You just touched on it. It’s really about value. In some ways I wish we could stop saying the word value altogether.
The Acceptable Replacements For the Often Overused Word in Sales “Value” · [07:46]
Will Barron:
Well, let me ask you this. I’m sorry to take you off your train thought, but is there a better word than value? Because I feel value doesn’t mean anything, it’s lost its meaning. Because I’ve had sales managers say to me in the past, “Just add more value, make more calls.” And that doesn’t mean anything.
“When we provide value for someone, it’s giving them the tools to make a better, faster, more effective, more efficient decision than they would have without our input. And that doesn’t mean giving them more information.” – David J.P Fisher · [08:45]
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah. Is there a better word than value? I don’t think there is. What I’ll say, is it’s like love, it’s like freedom. It’s a word that encompasses so many different ideas and it would take too long for us to try to parse out 20 different words. So we just say, “Hey, I love my dog. I love my wife. I love my job.” Even though those are three very different things, and we just work with it. I think we have to use value for right now. Although now you’ve given me a project, I’m going to think about that one. But what here’s why I do think value often gets, here’s what I think we usually mean, or that we need to mean in this context, is that when we provide value for someone, it’s giving them the tools to make a better, faster, more effective, more efficient decision than they would have without our input.
“Where I think we have a challenge in the sales world is I would argue that 20, 30 years ago, providing information helped people make better decisions, because they didn’t have access to it. Now they do.” – David J.P. Fisher · [09:07]
David J.P. Fisher:
That doesn’t mean giving them more information. Where I think we have a challenge in the sales world, is I would argue that 20, 30 years ago, providing information helped people make better decisions, because they didn’t have access to it. Now they do. So where does critical thinking come in? It actually allows us to walk into a scenario with a potential customer, they’ve got all the information they could possibly want. They’ve had a bunch of sales people come in, give their pitches, but they’re actually not further along towards making a better decision.
David J.P. Fisher:
So what critical thinking allows us to do, is say, “All right, Mrs. Prospect, you’ve shared that you’ve got these challenges. I have this information about the industry and about our products. I’ve also talked to another customer who instituted our solution and they got these results. So let me put those all together, and have some conversations with you. Then also knowing that, Hey, you might need to be able to get some approval for budget. I was just thinking creatively of this solution that you might be able to put this on a certain line item.” In my opinion, that’s value. It’s not, “Here’s our brochure. Here’s a blog article.” It’s, “Let me help you make that better decision.”
Is Critical Thinking in Sales Comparable to Consultative Selling? · [10:27]
Will Barron:
Is, again, without using another huge sales cliche, is this what a consultant does? So not a consultant who’s trying to sell consultancy, but someone who’s been hired, is that what we’re trying to emulate here, of, “I’m going to do all the brain work. I’m going to do all the research. I’m going to find the pieces of the puzzle that are missing. Here’s this potential solution,” that hopefully is our product. If it isn’t, “I’ll guide you, I’ll give you the first step on the pathway, alternatively.” Is that again, without using this cliche consultative selling, is that what we’re aiming for in this process?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, let’s use the cliche of consultative selling. I think that’s where we’re going. The reason why A, the consultative sellers always seemed to be the most successful, whether they were doing it deliberately, or just that’s who they were as a person. They were having success, they were getting engaged with their clients, they’re doing good business. But I also think when we look at what technology is doing, for most of the 20th century human beings were better at being machines than machines. Now machines are better at being machines than humans are. So if you want to talk about just the routine delivery of information, the routine outreach, AI, predictable algorithms, all these cool things, they can do really good stuff. If you’re trying to compete on that level with a machine, you’re going to lose as a salesperson.
David J.P. Fisher:
But what machines aren’t good doing yet, and hopefully won’t be for a while, is this creative side, which again has some complexity, but also some messiness. One of the things that can be really challenging, is that when you’re a salesperson doing consultative, or consultative selling, depending on your preference, if you walk into a buying committee that has 4, 5, 6, 7 people, you can’t put just an algorithm into that. Because the goals of that committee might change within a week. It’s the human capacity to roll with the punches, to understand the nuances, that’s where the value is. That’s how you stay employed, and that’s importance.
Critical Thinking Skills Derived from the World of Academics · [12:35]
Will Barron:
Is there a way to do this, and I’m using this word hesitantly, academically? As in, if someone had been to business school, they’d done whatever degree or extra degree, or they’d done an MBA, they would know the different matrices of the Ronald [Jenkins 00:12:57], Matrices of four ways to add value of whatever it is. I’m becoming more interested in this, because some of them are actually really useful and we’re teaching some of them in the sales school. I’m getting reports to people going, they’re selling to a CFO, perhaps they have an MBA, you talk on this level with them, not knowing that they’re into all this nerd stuff as well, the nerd side of business, and immediately you are elevated above everyone else in the room when you’re having these conversations. So I’m hesitant about using the word academics.
Will Barron:
I don’t know how much value academia has for sales, entrepreneurship, marketing, other than I guess … I don’t know. I think this is a conversation for another time, something I’m pondering in myself. But is there a way to use the academic side of things? These matrices, these structures, these ways of building an argument even, if we get away from business and get into linguistics. Is there a way to use all of this? As a writer, I’m sure you’re aware of all the linguistics side of things. Is there a way of doing all of this to build a succinct, almost executive briefing for a potential buyer, as opposed to a typical sales pitch?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah. So to be a 100% straightforward as I answer this question, I am a huge nerd. I have, the funny thing is you figure out that your parents are smarter, the older you get. And when you’re an 18 year-old kid, you don’t think your dad is smart at all. The one thing I listened to my dad tell me when I was 18, he’s like, “Go to, when you go to college, get a liberal arts degree, and learn how to think. You could apply that to anything.” I was like, “Okay, fine.” And I got a history degree, and I’ve told people over and over that having a history degree makes me a much better business person because of this, yes, there’s this disdain for academic. Why? It’s information, it’s tools, it’s skills. Yes, you don’t want to get buried in that. But I think sales for too long has been owned by the bros, the hustle, grind, it’s just, get out there, and it’s, “Hey!”
Will Barron:
The used car salesman is the stereotype, isn’t it?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, even definitely in B2B, you see this in tech sales all the time right now, and there is, I would never say, just hire a bunch of nerds to run your business, but right now the nerds are running the world. So let’s be careful before we dismiss it completely. I’m always a big fan of taking whatever you can from any discipline and bringing it into your practise. So there’s the hustle, there’s the psychology, the social skills that are inherent in the past of sales. I think you’re right, bringing in different methods and tools from academics, whether it’s finance, and going through spreadsheets. Whether it’s behave psychology, which is huge these days.
David J.P. Fisher:
I mean, all these ideas and tips and tricks, we’re learning are all from clinical psychologists, over the last couple decades. Heck, I think one of the best things a salesperson can do is improv training, like improv comedy. Because in fact, you learn critical thinking super fast in that setting. So I, yeah, don’t dismiss some academics. I think, as you said, if you can walk in and show, not necessarily that you got to brag about, “Hey, I read this book and I use these big words.” It’s, “Hey, I’ve got another tool that we can to help you make a better decision.” I mean, they’re going to listen to you and that’s the biggest first step, I think.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And as I say, I’m hesitant using the word academics, perhaps this is a reflection on me, and to be clear, I’ve got a degree in chemistry in one of the best schools of chemistry in the UK, in Europe. So I’m a huge nerd. My dissertation, I’m a published scientist. I’ve got a dissertation in computational chemistry-
David J.P. Fisher:
Yes, nice.
How to Highlight Your Critical Thinking Skills and Prove to a Buyer That You’re Better Than the Competition · [17:29]
Will Barron:
… I tagged on the end of someone else’s work, PhD, who’s now a professor. But I’m a huge nerd on the back of this, but I’m still somewhat hesitant to use that word, academic. So maybe why? I don’t know, maybe I need some psycho analysis on that front, to suss out why. But what I’m getting at, is there a way to, other than use critical thinking to come up with an idea and then share the idea verbally, or on a slide or presentation? Is there a way to either document this into a document, which you can use this methodology of thinking to separate yourself from the competition?
Will Barron:
Or is there a way to present this? Is there a way to, without ramming it down your potential customer’s throat that you are brighter than everyone else, and you’ve done a bit more work than anyone else? Because clearly that looks amateurish or on you if you’re trying to show off. Is there a way to present all of this thinking and data in a succinct way that people can consume? Or is the sales presentation, as we know it the pinnacle of sharing data?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah. Okay, so that’s an interesting question. Here’s what I would say. There are a number of, let’s call them, critical thinking modalities out there. I think it depends a little bit on what you’re selling, how technical you’re getting. Are you selling to engineers? Are you selling to marketing people? Are you selling to VP of HR? So the exact modality you use, I think will vary. It can be as simple as a Google search, “Critical thinking methodology,” “Critical thinking models.” There’s a bunch out there. I think you’re right, if you can figure out one or two that works for you, I think that’s a good first step.
“Here’s the problem with sales presentations. I think most of them are structured well, but we get lost in thinking that the way we’re going to sell people is just by hitting them with a bunch of information.” – David J.P Fisher · [18:58]
David J.P. Fisher:
Beyond that, I think it is at least just the conscious effort that you put in, to move past just the I’m … Here’s the problem with sales presentations. I think they’re actually, most of them are structured well, but we got lost in thinking that the way we’re going to sell people, is just by hitting them with a bunch of information. Versus we’re going to use the sales presentation, for example, to actually take them through these critical thinking steps, that I’ve gone through, and I’m going to help you see this as well.
The Perfect Sales Presentation that Highlights Your Entire Critical Thinking Process and Positively Influences Buyers · [19:24]
Will Barron:
So how does that look? There might not be an answer to this. I don’t know. How does that look practically?
David J.P. Fisher:
Will, I always love you, for years you’ve been like, “I’ve got a question. There’s a no answer, but I’m going to ask you anyways.” So cool, cheers.
Will Barron:
Because there might be answer, I’m not sure. As you know, I’m no expert in any of this, but how does that look practically then? And we’ll come off presentations in a second, David, but is this, because I think a presentation is a good way to outline this whole critical thinking process, is this, we would define a problem? Basically what I’m getting at, is should we as a sales person, is it our job to give them the end results and that’s it? Or is it our job to be capable of talking someone through a consultative process that leads us then to a conclusion? Do people want to just know, “Buy our product, do this for six months, and here’s the results?” Because people are busy, is that all people want? Or do professional buyers, the C-suites, all these high level executives that we are hopefully dealing with, do they want to know how we’ve come to the conclusions that we’ve come to?
David J.P. Fisher:
Oh yeah. So I think the answer in this case, or at least my first guess, is that it is both, if you have the answer, this is where then your human ability to understand the relationships and what’s happening in this scenario, the way they’re playing out. If you have that person, who’s like, “I’m busy, is this going to help me save 15% on my delivery time? Great. We’ll get you, you’re hired.” Having that and that confidence to be able to share that, is important. But I think long term, you’re going to be much more entrenched if you have the chance to share, “Hey, here’s how we came to these solutions. Here’s the problems we identified.”
David J.P. Fisher:
I think of, for example, these more complex sales, where companies … There’s a great story of in the Walmart headquarters down in the United States here, there’s actually different nodes for delivery companies like UPS and FedEx, where they’re actually entrenched into Walmart and helping to deliver stuff. They’re not losing those contracts anytime soon. In the same way, if you can at least be able to have that conversation, say, “Here’s how we walked through and got to these answers,” then you’re going to be, here’s the word, valuable person. You’re not going to lose the contract in six months, because you’ve shown that you’re worth having around.
Will Barron:
I guess, because I’m visualising this as if I was doing it. We’re, and we’ll probably talk about this off-air in a minute, but we are going to be selling the sales school to sales leadership, as alongside the audience and everyone else that jumps in there as well. The premise of that is to drive more revenue, of course, because one sales leader can buy it for a 100 sales reps, but also so that I can practise everything that we’re talking about, because I can really no longer sell the ad space on the podcast, because it’s sold out ahead of time. So I want to start engaging with sales leaders. The audience are going to have a good laugh at me doing this, because I think it might be, Will Sells Wednesday, and every Wednesday upload a video of me just hounding the phones, and then doing all this, and sending emails, and sending out packages.
Will Barron:
So that might be a YouTube show to come, tied in with the podcast and everything else we do over at salesman.org. But with that side, I’m just trying to visualise this. It seems like a good opportunity if we can demonstrate that we have a methodology. If you’re dealing with one of the big accountancy firms, you’re not just buying an accountant, you’re buying their methodologies, their ways of doing business and their network and everything else that they bring along.
Win More Deals by Presenting Prospects with a Document that Highlights Your Critical Thinking Process · [23:00]
Will Barron:
I feel like if we had, even if it’s a five step process, and it’s what we’re doing with common sense and what we’re doing with our gut feelings anyway, if we can have that one page for each of this, and this gets sent over on nice paper, printed professionally, with decent letterhead and all that kind of stuff, and a handwritten note on top. That goes out and maybe this is towards the close, or if you’re like me, and there’s a tender process for selling to the NHS, anything over, I think, it was 80 grand go to tender, even if you knew you going to win the business. A document like this that goes through all the critical thinking will have a tonne of weight when it lands on someone’s desk, versus a quick email or a proposal that’s been spammed together by the competition.
“Step number one, your industry research. You have to stay up to date on what’s happening in your industry. Number two, how your solutions are helping solve the challenges in that industry. The third is then your discovery, and actually using discovery as a methodology to figure out what’s really going on with those customers. So those could be calls, emails, whoever you can get a hold of to figure out how are the problems at this company connected and relevant to what’s happening in the industry. Then fourth, and by the way, this is similar to a sales presentation. Fourth is connecting the dots and saying, not just, “Hey, we can solve your problems,” but, “This is why.” And I think if you can put that why in, that’s that missing piece often. Then the fifth step is here’s our suggestions about how you’re going to move forward.” – David J.P. Fisher · [24:14]
David J.P. Fisher:
Oh, absolutely. So that’s a really good point. It’s funny, I was talking to somebody the other day, who was going, “Oh yeah, I don’t really like to listen to sales speakers and authors, because they’re not selling.” And I’m like, “How do you think we get gigs? We’re selling every day.” Here’s the five steps. One, I would say you do the … And this is riffing off the top of my head, but I think it could work. Step number one, your industry research. So you have to say up to date on what’s happening in your industry. Number two, how your solutions are helping solve the challenges in that industry. The third is then your discovery, and actually using discovery as a methodology to figure out what’s really going on with those customers.
David J.P. Fisher:
So those could be calls, emails, whoever you can get ahold of figure out how are the problems that this company, how are they connected and relevant to what’s happening in the industry. Then fourth, and by the way, this is similar to a sales presentation. Fourth is connecting the dots and saying, not just, “Hey, we can solve your problems,” but, “This is why.” And I think if you can put that why in, that’s that missing piece often. Then the fifth step is here’s our suggestions about how you’re going to move forward. Does that make sense?
Will Barron:
It makes total sense. This is, and I’ll type this up in the show note to this episode as well, over at salesman.org, but I feel, and I’m processing this myself, because if I want to get in touch with a VP of sales, for example, or CRO, CSO, whoever it is, clearly they’re busy. And there’s a lot of sales enablement products and services that have SDRs, that are spamming the heck out of them, that if they have an account that already with multiple pieces of software, for example, they’re already getting multiple emails a day with updates and all this kind of stuff. There’s a lot of data being driven on the back. So these individuals are difficult to get hold of, but if I could do what you just described, which I think a lot of marketing teams will probably have this for the organisation of, “This is what we got. This is what we do. Here’s some industry insights. Here are what we have done internally to connect the dots.”
Will Barron:
If we could do this for an individual account, say like I was prospecting Salesforce, but obviously we work for Salesforce, and we’ve got a good relationship with them. But if I was trying to proactively sell this to the sales team, if I could talk about all these different steps for Salesforce, as the incumbent supply in the industry, the, everyone obviously is competing against Salesforce in the enterprise space. They own the market. We can talk about the strength we can use to talk about the academic side of things. We can do a SWOT analysis with strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats. This, and maybe this isn’t a physical document like I made out before, but maybe this is email number two.
Will Barron:
Or we’ll get on the phone on Wednesday, here’s a bit of prep I’ve done beforehand, which enables you to one, it’s going to give you a kick in the ass not to miss the call, because you can see how much research we’ve done and they’re going to be excited for the call to take place. But two, it again aligns you as an expert in the space. If you are talking about all of this, from the salesperson’s perspective, you’re connecting the dots of your customers and the organisation that you’re trying to break into. Perfect if you’re working with Salesforce and HubSpot or whoever, and some other direct competitor. Or me, I sold, one of my biggest accounts to medical devise sales, was Bradford Hospital, it’s right by Leeds Hospital.
The Benefits of Demonstrating Critical Thinking and Giving Industry Insights to Buyers and Prospects · [27:35]
Will Barron:
Literally I’d get all the insights from Leeds, and I’d go over to Bradford, because I like them better, and they spent more money with me. I would say, “Leeds are doing X, Y, Z.” And I’d give them the insights and I’d lead with that. But I’d always do this vocally. I feel like there is a way to document this down, whether it’s an email, whether it’s a formal piece of paperwork. And again, this critical thinking, and doing all these steps beforehand, rather than just going off my gut, which might get to the same conclusion. I think there’s just value in demonstrating this.
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah. I think you’re you’re right, that idea of demonstrating. What I was thinking as you were speaking, is so many sales people these days, especially in the social media, social selling space, are told, “Share content, put your message out there.” I talk about being a sales Sherpa in Hyper-Connected Selling. One of the ways you do that without being annoying, is by giving this information to them. Like you said, “I was just over at your competitor, here’s some of the stuff I heard they were doing.” Whether or not you say them by name is fine, but that becomes … Even a LinkedIn article, a LinkedIn post, an email. I love the idea of having those emails dripping out with actual usable information. Whether or not the customer imbibes all of it, that’s up to them. But yeah, as you said, they’re going view you as somebody, “Hey, I’m going to, when Will emails or calls, I’m going to pay attention. When Will emails, I’ll actually open the email.”
How Much of What Salespeople Do Behind the Scenes is Taken for Granted by Buyers? · [29:00]
Will Barron:
And this is something I’m constantly thinking about, because you can obviously overshare. But how much of what we do is perhaps taken for granted by buyers. If the answer is a whole bunch, then should we be going out of our way to demonstrate what we’re doing behind the scenes? Because I feel like the answer is a lot of the stuff that we do, is just taken for granted.
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, a lot is always taken for granted. Showing what’s happening behind the scenes does give you a little more value. It says, “Hey, I just didn’t make this stuff up before I walked in your office. I’m actually thinking about you when you’re not around.” But go back to that idea of consultative selling, what’s the biggest difference, I think, between a consultant and a salesperson, is that a salesperson gets to the end of that page and goes, “Hey, do you want to work together?” I mean, there is that sense of asking for the relationship, asking for the business. I think that can be the biggest shift. So yeah, definitely sharing, “Hey, we put some thought and energy into this.” Because so many of your competitors, not the people watching and listening to this, but all the other people are just pounding the pavements, not thinking about things, they are just showing up, sending a bunch of emails, giving a bunch of calls, not providing any of this. So the moment you can distance yourself from those people, that’s a big value-add these days.
Will Barron:
For sure, and just to double down on this, I’m sure you get emails all the time, but I don’t know whether I’ve been mentioned somewhere, or because I’ve talked about revenue numbers of the sales school on another podcast recently. I don’t know what it is, but in the past month or so, I’ve been getting a tonne of inbound, which is good, because I get to see it and have a chat with different sales people, getting a tonne of inbound LinkedIn messages, emails, whatever it is, and it all started all of a sudden because, so I’m assuming something has leaked, or been shared or I’ve been put on some list somewhere.
Will Barron:
And no one is doing anything like this. No one is reaching out being, “Hey, I see that you are clearly you’re using the revenue from the podcast to grow this. So our service might make one cheaper, or more effective,” or this, or that. It’s always the same generic blend, unfortunately, an email from an SDR that has zero value, zero critical thinking has gone into it. Perhaps this is a good way to wrap up the show than, David, is a good rule of thumb then that if we’re sending an email, and there has been no critical thinking behind the email that we’ve sent, there’s probably, it’s not unreasonable to assume that there’s zero value involved in that email as well?
“If you’ve put zero effort into sending the email, they’re going to put zero effort into responding to it.” – David J.P. Fisher · [31:31]
David J.P. Fisher:
If you’ve put zero effort into sending the email, they’re going to put zero effort into responding to it. So yeah, I think that’s exactly right.
Will Barron:
Because if you playing that game, you’re just hoping that they have had a really unfortunate meeting, where they’ve taken a good rollicking, or they’ve lost some money, or someone’s left the business 10 minutes before. That’s your only shot if you are sending emails like that, right?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, that’s exactly. It’s like being on a dating website and just hoping that you’ve just gotten the timing perfect and somebody just had a bad breakup. Versus actually going, being proactive with your outreach. So yeah, taking a little more time and effort does take more time and effort, but the results are much more powerful.
How Useful is Implementing Critical Thinking Into Everyday Sales Processes? · [32:19]
Will Barron:
So final thing on this, and I don’t know where we’ll go with this question and I won’t ask this to everyone that comes on the show, but we know each of relatively well now, so I’m sure you’ll have an answer for it. But I think a lot of the issues that I have selling, personally, come from trusting my gut, and so just jumping into things, burning the bridges and going all in. Which can be a positive thing, can be a be a negative thing.
Will Barron:
I also have cognitive distance that I’m a pretty good salesperson. So I can perhaps skip this step, or I’m good at building relationships, so I don’t need to do this or that, because I can make it up later on the line. One thing that I do all the time, is I will rationalise something because I’ve seen an outcome that I want to get to, and I’ll rationalise that I’m the right person to do the job, or that we can do X, Y, Z, no matter what. I’ve just got strong self belief that we can, me and the team that we built, can do whatever we need to do to get the job done. How useful is implementing critical thinking into our day-to-day sales and business lives, to perhaps negate some of these psychological potential barriers that we all have, of over-rationalising things, or essentially cognitive dissonance [inaudible 00:33:30].
“A healthy dose of critical thinking in sales and in all parts of our life can, at least, if they don’t prevent all the problems in the future, they at least prevent the bigger blow-ups.” – David J.P. Fisher · [34:15]
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, we’re all psychologically rationalising our lives every day. The challenge is that’s not a sales thing, that’s a human thing, but you are absolutely right. Putting these processes into place are a powerful way of maybe avoiding some of the pitfalls. I do a lot of this work when I’m working with business owners who are also salespeople. As a sales person, we go, “Oh, I can totally sell.” And as a business person, you go, “Well, do you really have the market penetration? Do you really have the value proposition? Let’s think this one through.” A lot of times then they pull back a little bit. So I always think a healthy dose of critical thinking, definitely in sales, but in all parts of our life can, at least, if they don’t prevent all the problems in the future, they at least prevent the bigger blow-ups. So it helps not only in your sales processes, but also in your internal talking to yourself, that internal sales process.
Will Barron:
That’s exactly what I wanted to hear, because I know every time I screw up, both in or out of business, is because I’m running at a brick wall 500 miles an hour, when you can go round, or under it, there’s a better solution. I have to stop, take a minute, and just … I use my journal. If I’m struggling with a problem, if I’m getting pissed off at my girlfriend, if I’m annoyed at someone else, I’ll just sit and write in my journal, and go, “Oh, it’s my fault, isn’t it?” Every time, 100% of the time.
Will Barron:
Got beat up at jiu-jitsu the other day. Guy was being a bit rough. I was just like, I saw him beat someone else up, not literally, but be more rough than what he should have been with someone of our level. I watched him beat someone else up, I should have not rolled with him. I should have gone with someone else. It was like, the decision was mine, but I was adrenaline [inaudible 00:35:28] in the moment. As a tool and tactic, I find journaling, just writing down in a notepad just to get it out of my brain has a lot of benefits for me.
David J.P. Fisher:
I journal almost every day. I’m with you.
David’s Advise to His Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [35:58]
Will Barron:
Good, and the audience should do as well. I think it’s incredibly useful and I get all my best ideas out of it. Again, it helps me reflect on the fact that 99% of the time, it’s me being an idiot, as opposed to someone else, if I’m really annoyed or whatever it is. Well, with David, we’ve covered a lot ground on this one, mate. I want to ask you one question that I ask everyone that comes on the show. You’ve answered it about 47 times now, and I’m going to ask it you again. That is, if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you’d give him to help him become better at selling?
David J.P. Fisher:
I think I’ve said something similar to this, but enjoy life. There’s always a time to work hard and I, there’s a time and place to work hard, but life is an amazing experience. Not all of us are promised tomorrow. So work hard, and not play hard, but go try experiences, try new things, meet new people, life is short. So don’t waste it.
Parting Thoughts · [37:47]
Will Barron:
Let me ask you this, and you don’t need to go into it if this is too personal, but you’ve had something to celebrate recently, and you can elaborate on that if you choose to, but how has that given you perhaps a kick in the ass, and how has that got you excited and ready to double down on things?
David J.P. Fisher:
Yeah, so we’re having our first baby in a couple months. We’ve got a little boy coming, so that’s pretty exciting. I waited a little longer life to do that, but it’s going to be a lot of fun. And you know what? It is a wonderful kick in the pants, where for me, two things that have happened, one is I’ve always run a business that could take care of me and my wife. Well, and now there’s a third person, who you can’t just say, “Hey, you know what, maybe we won’t eat as much today.” So that has been wonderful. But honestly, the other thing that’s come through my mind a lot is the idea of modelling. My son will learn from me osmotically as we go through life together and am I being the kind of person that I would want him to be when he’s an adult? So that’s been a really cool introspective opportunity for me as well.
Will Barron:
Amazing. Well, that’s probably a show for another time. Modelling, I guess we never really talked about that on the podcast before. It’s something that I do regularly, and it’s when I have a specific person I like to follow in this regard, and in this thing. When I do social media, perhaps I don’t want to emulate them, but I want to do it like this person, for example. And there’s probably a whole rabbit hole of places to go with that. But with that David, tell us a little bit about the books. I feel, and we touched on Hyper Connected Selling. But tell us a little bit about the books and where we can find out more about you as well?
David J.P. Fisher:
Well. Yeah, so I do have a lot of books available, including Networking In The 21st Century and Hyper-Connected Selling. Find those on this little website called Amazon, just either search my name, David J.P Fisher, or those titles, and they’ll pop up. You can find me on to Twitter, @dfishrockstar, LinkedIn, linkedin.com/iamdfish I-A-M-D-F-I-S-H. More than happy to connect with you, answer any questions I can. And my online home is davidjpfisher.com/salesman podcast. That’s a landing site just for everybody joining us today.
Will Barron:
Perfect. Well, I’ll link to all of that in the show notes of this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, David, want to thank you for your time, your insights as always. This was a real interesting topic for me, to be introspective of my lack of critical thinking, and how it leads to most of my disastrous business and personal problems. But with that, mate, I want to thank you for again, for your insights and joining us on the show.
David J.P. Fisher:
Always a pleasure, Will,
